Ep. 156: Felt Needs for Moms

God Hears Her Podcast

Episode 156 – Felt Needs For Moms

Vivian Mabuni, Eryn Adkins, and Elisa Morgan

Elisa: We look at motherhood as a calling. Right? 

Eryn: Yeah.

Elisa: You know, calling is a big topic. And there’s no doubt that God calls, but in Scripture, you know, if you look at what happens in Scripture, God first calls us to Himself, to a relationship with Him. You think about Him calling the disciples, “Come to Me.” You know, “John, come follow Me. Come and see what I’m doing. Come and learn. Come and be with Me.” So we’re first called to Him. 

[Theme music]

Intro: You’re listening to God Hears Her, a podcast for women where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His. Find out how these realities free you today on God Hears Her.

Vivian: Welcome to God Hears Her. I’m Vivian Mabuni.

Eryn: And I’m Eryn Adkins. Today we’re doing things a little bit differently. Our producer was with us at the MOMCON Conference this past fall. While we were there, she walked around and recorded some conversations with the women attending the conference. 

Vivian: We asked multiple moms what they thought were some of the felt needs for moms everywhere, and we thought it would be perfect to bring their voices in for a Mother’s Day conversation.

Eryn: Well, let’s get started for this special God Hears Her conversation.

Vivian: Well, hey everyone! This is so exciting, and as I think about it, a really great opportunity for the three of us to discuss something that is near and dear to us. And I realize that among the three of us, we really cover the gamut. 

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: And we’re talking about motherhood today. We’re talking with Elisa being a mom through adoption, you know. Eryn, you’re a mom through blended family, and that’s a different experience as well. And I’m a mom through just the regular, old-fashioned birth way or whatever...

Elisa: [laughing] . . . The old-fashioned way!

Eryn: Old fashioned!

Vivian: I know . . .

[Laughter]

Vivian: But motherhood is so expansive, and it impacts women very differently. And when we talk about motherhood, there’s not a cookie-cutter way to approach this topic. It’s complex. It’s broad. We have different seasons of motherhood. There’s also grandmotherhood, which is another season you’re walking in, Elisa. So I love that the three of us get to join together and really discuss how motherhood affects all of us and mothering too. I think that there’s also . . . understanding or being sensitive to our listeners who are walking the road of infertility and deeply desiring to be moms as well. 

Elisa: Well said, yeah.

Vivian: Yeah. So there’s a... there’s a whole gamut, but I love that three of us get to talk about it. And we have actually today the opportunity to hear from the MOMCON Conference just interviewing women and some of the struggles that they have with motherhood.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: So we’re going to jump in and hear some of the actual clips and conversation. And we’ll kind of discuss what we think and what comes to mind as we listen to that. So here’s our first clip.

Voice #1: Well, I would say one of the things I hear most about is childcare, the traditional childcare of finding daycare is hard to find. And then if you just want a little reprieve from your kids, even to run to the grocery store, sometimes I think it’s seen as a weakness. Why? You can’t take your kids with you? I used to go grocery shopping with all of my kids. Just little things like that, and it’s really hard to find another person who you both trust and they’re willing, without judgment, to watch your kids for a bit. Primarily, as a stay-at-home mom, I don’t feel like I’m allowed to ask for help. You know I should be a working mom to earn that right of childcare. And I do know, you know, my mom always says, “I’ll take the kids anytime.” But she never actually offers to take them. You know and that . . . sometimes I think what would be easier if she said, “Hey, drop the kids off from 10 to noon. I’ve got nothing going on.” It’s hard for me to ask, but if she were to like word it a little bit differently, I think I would take her up on it more often. 

Elisa: Why do you think it’s so hard to ask for help in childcare?

Vivian: Well, I think this woman described it so well. There’s the sense of thinking I should be stronger or be able to handle more, and comparison. Hearing other people say, “Well, I did this, and why can’t you do that?” Or what I drew from what she shared was just the sense of even comparing working moms to stay-at-home moms. And if you’re a working mom, then you have earned the right to need, but if you’re a stay-at-home mom, you’re not actually working even though you’re working. So I would love to be able to discuss this with you all. What do you think?

Eryn: Yeah, I mean, when I heard that, I’m almost like reading between the lines, cause I feel like we can have this tendency to feel less of a mom to ask for help. Right? I think that’s what I’ve witnessed and what I kind of heard in her.

Elisa: Okay. That’s one reason is that I don’t have what I need. Yeah. I’m less than. 

Eryn: I hear her saying, It would be nice for somebody to offer to help me ask for help, almost. Like Read between the lines of my needs because I’m having to fulfill the needs of all of my children on a daily basis. So there’s almost like a level of desiring to be nurtured while you’re also nurturing your kids that I think moms desire.

Elisa: That’s good.

Vivian: Yeah.

Elisa: If we go ahead and ask, it validates that there’s something wrong with us; so if somebody asks us, it takes us off the hook. 

Vivian: Mothering and being a mom surfaces all sorts of insecurities that are beyond what is before us. In this case, it’s asking for help, receiving help, feeling worthy of help — all of those things could fruit out in any other area. But in this case, it’s in childcare in particular. So it is something worth exploring. I... it reminds me of the time I had the privilege of staying home with the kids, as well, when they were young. And I remember feeling like I’m drowning, and I know that other moms are probably feeling the same way. So we actually created a moms’ co-op where we had live five moms and all the kids. And two of the moms stayed with all the kids, while three moms had two and a half hours to do whatever they wanted to do. They could go grocery shopping; they could go take a nap. We rotated, and then the two moms were together, so at least there was camaraderie. It wasn’t like, you know, so there was still a social aspect to it.

Elisa: That’s great.

Vivian: The kids loved it, because they got to spend time together and not have to just be with their sibling, you know, or siblings. And so it was a way to have those needs met, but it felt like we were sharing the load. And it wasn’t as distasteful, as far as like, Oh now I have to go and watch my friends’ kids, you know, that kind of a thing. But it was like we’re being social about it, and that was a lifeline for me in those years because I had to find a solution to get time to not just completely fall apart, because it was just so physically exhausting.

Eryn: Let’s listen to the next felt need.

Voice #2: Support raising kids at all levels. Just to come alongside and support when it’s a bad day, when it’s a good day. Help when they’re going through stuff you don’t know what to do, like I can’t believe your kid just gave a phone number out to somebody.

Eryn: I will say that the only way we could helpfully blend our family is not by our own doing, but by the doing of our community and the people that surround us. Matt and I, we are just not enough in that way. We need people to reinforce truth and love and patience and kindness and self-control, that are modeling the things that we desire to instill in our girls. And we could not do this without friends, without people that, you know, if there is a heavy weekend. It’s Hey, let’s surround us this weekend with other people than us! [Laughing] You know because we just see the importance so much of our friends and our community and our family pouring into our girls just as much as we do. 

Elisa: Mm-hmm

Eryn: And I think it takes humility to admit that you really are not enough. Like you...

Vivian: Yeah.

Eryn: ...as much as you want to be the one that they seek out and the one that they ask the advice on, the truth is like they won’t always do that. And I’m so new. Like I... I want to preface like I was a goldfish that was like thrown in cold water. I like was thrown into a 7-, 13-, 15-year-old. And I love them with all my heart, and I’m learning so much from yall and the women in my life. But the one thing I keep coming back to that I practice is, as much as I long for them to like want to ask me all the questions, and I’m qualified to, they won’t. But they will their small-group leader, and they will our friends, and they will — so, I will say like that relieves pressure. It takes the pressure off of you once you admit that you can’t be all things and that.

Elisa: And in community, you’re absolutely right. You realize you’re not alone, and you’re not really weird, you know, or abnormal. I mean you might be in a few ways, but I mean . . . [Laughter] . . . everything you’re going through is pretty much what other people are going through. And there’s such a balm in that. It’s so encouraging that, Oh, your kid gave out their phone number too. I remember my... my kids could never even say their phone numbers. I mean these days they’re all on the phone. They don’t even know what they are. But still, whatever the issue is, to know, Oh, I’m not the only one who’s been through this.

Vivian: Yeah, I think it takes that humility to be able to say, “I’m struggling.” Like for Darrin and I, being missionaries. We are, you know, in vocational ministry. It’s kind of similar to being pastors. Like there’s this fishbowl and that expectation to present well, even, and that’s probably more my own issue than anything else. But to be able to say in small group, Hey, we had a fight last night. And people don’t think that missionaries have fights, I guess, but I mean it’s not... 

Elisa: Right.

Vivian: ...it’s not that uncommon to hear that. But it... it’s like all of us have experienced in small group, when we’re all together and everyone’s trying to put their best foot forward; but the first time someone really shares a real personal need or prayer request, it just breaks a threshold that enables people to become real with one another. And that takes time, and it takes at least some proven trust, because it is something . . . I don’t want the whole world to be blasted with the fact that I’m struggling with this with my children.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: ...um... It needs to be with people that are trustworthy, who will hold confidence, who are wise. And that’s where it takes humility on our part to be able to admit that, but also discernment with who we are talking with about our kids’ story too. That’s the other piece that I’m realizing is that, you know, when we put everything on Instagram, and our kids didn’t give permission for that.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: ... And that’s where we really need to be careful about broadcasting to the world all of our kids’ problems. I think again that needs to be...

Elisa: Yeah. Yeah.

Vivian: ...really carefully considered.

Elisa: Mm-hmm

Eryn: Yeah.

Elisa: Mm-hmm. So good, Viv. Yeah.

Eryn: What practical advice would yall give somebody that sees their children’s choices, and maybe they don’t agree with them, and they take it personally, as if it reflects who they are as a parent. Cause I feel like that’s some of what we’re touching on. Right? 

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Eryn: ...Cause when you start to sit across from somebody at a table, and they say, “Oh, my kids do that too,” you’re like, Okay, wait a second then, it’s not actually a reflection of my character and my integrity. It just has to do with this age. What’s something that you would say to that person?

Elisa: We do tend to view our children as reflections of ourselves. They are our report cards on how we’ve been and what we’ve done as a mother. That’s what we view. And I think that’s so unfair to them and so unfair to us. When I look at my children, and they may have made a choice different from me, or gone down a path I wouldn’t have chosen, or repeated exactly what I did, and it turned out better. Whatever. Rather than let them be evaluations of who we are, what I’m learning — again it’s been a million years — is: Who is that person? Who is that woman? Who is that man? Who is that adolescent, my grandchildren? You know, rather than looking at them through my eyes, can I just look at them and see who they are? And that has been pure delight. And I’m going to admit this, you know, because I am a grandmother, and I became a grandmother very young in my life, I learned kind of quickly that I wasn’t the mom. And so it wasn’t my responsibility to raise up this young man. Now I influenced him, but it was kind of like, Oh! And so then I would lay those lessons on my still developing, growing to be adult children, and it helped me so much because they are delights in and of themselves. And I spent a lot of years mis-stepping or misappropriating their uniquenesses as my definitions. It’s just not. They are who they are, and especially as adopted kids. You know we... we think, Oh, I can make them a mini-me. No! We’re not supposed to make an adopted a child a mini-me nor a biological child a mini-me...

Vivian: Yeah, that’s good.

Elisa: ...Our job is to view them as a gift, and we open them, and pull the tissue back, and we take them out of the box, and we look at them in awe! And we think, Wow! You know how can I enjoy this gift? Where can I place this gift so that it’s best seen? How can I give this gift the most nutrients and feedback and everything it needs to continue to be the gift that it is? Wow! That’s a whole different role, isn’t it?

Vivian: It’s so good to understand, I think, dovetailing off of that, is that our children are not ours. They’re entrusted to us for a short amount of time. And going back to what you were asking, Eryn, in response to being asked, my advice is: Keep in mind that we don’t see the end of the story. And if I sit here in this exact moment, how life looked five years ago is very different than how it looks right now — for good and for worse, you know. And same thing, I believe in five years my life will not look how it’s looking right now, and neither will it be in the lives of my children, in the family . . . And so, in that way, there’s a sense that I do need to sort through really what’s going on in me that’s causing me to feel the pressure to have my kids perform in order for me to feel good.

Elisa: Mmm.

Vivian: That’s not fair to them.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: They need to walk their own path. They need to own their own faith. We do, as Elisa was talking about, we do create and nurture and direct and guide. But, ultimately, in each of our lives, it was a decision that we made before the Lord; and it helped to have all of those components. But ultimately our kids will make the choices and need to learn.

Eryn: Okay, well, let’s hear the next clip.

Voice #3: Well, I would say that some of the felt needs for moms today are just to know that they’re not alone in whatever the struggle is. There’s so many ranges of parenting and motherhood, and even as the seasons change, even though our kids may need us less through certain seasons or more in others, just knowing that we’re not in the middle of that struggle or that battle by ourselves. And so I think that’s a really big one. Also just really knowing that we are enough, that God called us to this family, so He didn’t make any mistake in how difficult it may be in raising your children, but that there is something that He’s growing and developing on the inside of us, even through experiencing the hard times. And when we get to the other side, as long as we continue to endure with faith, as long as we continue to lean into our community rather than feeling shame about even those things that come up, that that’s how God ends up getting the glory out of our motherhood and can transform our hearts the same way that He’s developing and growing our children and being able to see Jesus in us.

Elisa: There are a lot of single moms, moms in homes without faith, moms who are actually caring for their parents while they’re caring for their children or caring for their grandchildren while they’re raising their children. You know there’s a lot of flavors of momming out there, and I think it can be even more difficult when we are in what’s (quote) “a nontraditional,” you know, mothering role, which is so common, whether or not it’s (quote) “traditional.” And I guess I want to say to that woman: Yeah, you’re not alone, but how do you continue to remember you’re not alone when you kinda are alone? So what would you say?

Vivian: I think there’s the initial acknowledgement that it’s hard. I can’t even imagine some of the challenges that come as a result of having to mother alone, be a mother, or be in challenging circumstances. I think of my friends who have kids with special needs. 

Elisa: Right.

Vivian: And there’s just an emotional taxing, and it’s easy to compare. It’s easy to long for something that’s different. And so, in that, there’s the first part is just the acknowledge that it is hard. 

Elisa: Mm-hmm

Vivian: It is challenging. It is stretching in ways that require digging deeper than someone who isn’t in that situation. And then I would say, too, as this woman had talked about, you know, that God did not make a mistake. And I would say — not to hyper-spiritualize in any way or to dismiss the challenge, but to perhaps lift the eyes to know that God is with us, and He is able to redeem, and He sees us. His track record is faithful, even if our circumstances are not so. The longer we walk the earth, the more we are acquainted with grief and loss and circumstances not being how we thought they would be. For some of the women, this will be the first time they’ve had to really trust the Lord, because there’s no way to do it except for through trusting the Lord. And so the head knowledge in those circumstances becomes heart knowledge. It’s not something that you can pick up from listening to a sermon or reading a book. It’s lived life and the challenge that comes through forging roots that go deeper and deeper through the soil to get to the real Living Water. And I think that that’s the beautiful piece that happens over the course of time. There’s no hurrying that process, but I see it over and over in the beautiful ways that women come out as gold. They’re just women of substance because of the challenges they walked through.

Eryn: That’s beautiful, Vivian. One of the things that stuck out to me when she said, “You are enough,” I believe what she’s saying is: Right now where you are, how you’re wired, how you’re equipped, what you’re thinking, feeling, you are enough right now to move forward, to take the next step towards bringing Jesus into this relationship, this duet that you get to have with Him as you learn, and how He teaches you how to parent because He’s the ultimate Parent. He will bring people, and He’ll bring wise counsel that can help carry the burden that you feel, that makes you feel like you are not enough, and that makes you . . . maybe even points out your flaws in the things that you know, the checklist that you have in your head that says you’re unqualified. Well, He says you are. You are enough, and bring Me in. I can fill in those gaps, those spaces with bringing people in and bringing My strength in and the awareness of how I view you. All of it.

Elisa: Such deep words! Thank you, both of you. Wow! I’m also thinking: What are we putting in our heads? You know if we turn on — no offense but — the Hallmark, and only see the formulaic ...

Vivian: Mm-hmm. The guy in the plaid shirt . . . 

Elisa: . . . Sad, happy sad. Yeah. Yeah, kind of plaid shirt. [Laughter] ... Yeah, if we only put that into our minds, we’re going to have this expectation that’s formulaic. But if we pick up — even in talking with us here right now. I know you. I mean, Viv, you’re saying you can only imagine the pain . . . eh... But I know, I’ve read your book Warrior in Pink. You went through cancer with your children...

Vivian: Yeah. Yeah.

Elisa: ... And there are lessons about what you’ve learned about the unimaginable. And I’ve read your book, Eryn, So Worth Loving. And the lessons that you learned in your single years about what you didn’t think you could handle, and yet what you learned about God. And read my book, The Beauty of Broken, you know...

Eryn: Yeah.

Elisa: ... What I have learned about all the mistakes I’ve made, and how God can actually use them. I mean I think if we can fill our minds, and I’m not saying with the down stuff, but with the real stuff. 

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Elisa: ...You know listen to podcasts that are not just formulaic, but that share the grist as well as the glory. You know? 

Vivian: Yeah.

Elisa: That we really immerse ourselves in reality. That will help us, especially in the season of parenting young children, or when we get to a very difficult time where we feel like we’re the only ones who are messing it up. Let’s hear the next clip.

Voice #4: I would say more support during the postpartum period, just in general, from everywhere. If they work full-time, then their company is, you know, having more paid time off, more flex times. Then with family, lactation support, anything to help with the three months. Fourth trimester is what they call it. 

Vivian: Well, there’s definitely a lot there. When I think about how society used to be set up, with smaller communities, the quilting circle and the doctor who made house calls and that kind of setting. And we can idealize that too. There were immediate people that knew about what kind of ointment to use when you are nursing, and it’s extremely painful. Or This is what happens when the baby’s transitioning sleep, or whatever. There’s just . . . there were more resources to draw from. Now we do have the internet, and we have all sorts of ability to get some forums and things where we can get questions answered. But I feel like she was talking about the need for support on a practical level, with the physical exhaustion of birthing a baby and trying to adjust to nursing and all that.

Elisa: I remember some myths that I didn’t know I believed that I . . . They were exposed as I was a young mom. And, okay, admittedly I was an adoptive mom, so I had a different set of them than a biological mom would. And my own were things like I was terrified that if I ever gave my baby to someone else to hold, that that baby would bond with them instead of with me. 

Vivian: Mmm.

Elisa: I was so insecure about it. And I didn’t recognize it, and so I wouldn’t let myself have a break for the longest time. And I think biological moms struggle the same way, you know, of No, I have to everything. I’m the mother. I have to. do. everything. And, you know, and maybe you’re breastfeeding, and your baby won’t take a bottle. Well, that just rewards that, and you’re like See? You know it’s only me. It’s only me and my breastmilk that the baby will take. And, you know, you can trap yourself into that kind of a . . . an understanding where you’d never get a clear understanding. So I think to have some resources that normalize both psychologically what’s going on and physically what’s going on. Today I know my ... my daughter who takes care of babies and my daughter-in-law who has a baby, they both use an app . . . [laughing] . . . that tells you, “Okay, feed so-and-so. Okay, change so-and-so. Okay, put so-and-so to bed. I’m going Huh? You know, who? 

Eryn: Wow!

Elisa: ... We had to figure that out, but what a . . . what a joy, what a resource! And I can just hear moms going, Oh, I can’t depend on that. That’s wrroong! Because we’re always looking for what’s wrong and what’s right, you know, in this whole thing. And to normalize it, we just need to know, you know, what’s going to work here to get this baby from zero to a hundred.

Eryn: That’s good. I feel like I can’t speak deeply on this topic, based off of my personal experience, but I feel like I can share some things that I’ve witnessed in some of my dearest friends that have had children and really walked alongside a few friends that have experienced postpartum depression and even just suicidal ideation or even just . . .

Vivian: Yeah.

Eryn: . . .  hopelessness in, you know, six, eight months after they’ve had their baby to being a stay-at-home mom and feeling like: Is this all my identity is? You know and...

Elisa: Yes!

Eryn: ... like that’s their response, you know, is that. And the common denominator that I’ve witnessed is when some of those friends have decided like I have to hunker down and just do the work. And the work looks like — and I don’t mean mothering. I mean showing up to circles, or small groups, when you don’t really want to. It looks like placing or making a phone call when you’re exhausted and you’re laying in bed. But you know that it would be a fruitful phone call. At the end of the day, you would feel less alone. And it looks like texting a friend and asking them to help you or telling them that you really need help. I remember one of my girlfriends . . . It was a holiday party. I said, “How are you doing?” Her baby is five months old, and she’s like “I’m really depressed, and I really don’t care to live right now.” And I was like Oh! And she’s like, “I’m not telling you this because I need you to like call 911.” She said, “I just need to say it, cause that’s my reality of how I feel right now.” And, of course, she was seeking therapy and has a wonderful husband who was just so supportive, but it doesn’t mean that her thoughts weren’t there. And that’s where she was at. And I just loved the vulnerability and the honesty of admitting where you’re at . . .

Vivian: That’s so good...

Eryn: ...And then I’m going to see this. I’m going to ask for help. I’m going to ask for support, even if it’s one or two people and it’s really hard. I’m going to let them in on that.

Elisa: We look at motherhood as a call. Right?

Eryn: Yeah.

Elisa: You know, calling is a big topic. And there’s no doubt that God calls, but in Scripture, you know, if you look at what happens in Scripture, God first calls us to Himself, to a relationship with Him. You think about Him calling the disciples, “Come to Me.” You know, “John, come follow Me. Come and see what I’m doing. Come and learn. Come and be with Me.” So we’re first called to Him. 

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Elisa: And then after that, we’re called to a unique kind of investment in His kingdom for His purposes. Motherhood definitely is that. You have little ones. There’s nobody but you who’s the mom in their life. If you do relinquish to adoption, there will be an adoptive mom involved, but that baby will always remain in your heart. I think we need to be clear about calling. You know, first call to Jesus; second, we have a role to play, but that’s not the only role. And if you think about it, and you look at your life. Suppose we live a normal lifespan. Only about one third of our lives — think about from around the age 20 to around the age 40, twenty years of a child’s life — only about a third of our lives is spent in active mothering. I mean if you had a child, you know that. They go to college, or they go get a job, or they go sleep on their friend’s couch, and you’re lucky if you ever hear from them again! . . . [Laughing] . . . I mean it’s like Okay, we’re done. 

Vivian: Yep, yep.

Elisa: . . . I mean I’m being very facetious, but you are a forever mother, but it’s not an ongoing everyday investment. So when we look at the call to God and we look at the calling of motherhood, we need to look at the calling of God’s imprint on our life as a disciple, as a woman who belongs to Him, and how we express that in everything we do in every season.

Vivian: I think that’s so true. And my friend, Kat Amstrong, differentiates calling with assignment...

Elisa: Oh, I like that!

Vivian: . . . Yeah, so we are called to love one another. We are called to the Lord. Our callings never change. Our assignments do change over the course of our lives, and so we live the assignment that we’re currently in. And if we have been brought into an assignment to be a mother, to be an adoptive mother, to be a stepmother, to be a bonus mom — in any of those, those are assignments God will continue to assign and reassign. And we walk through life — especially as women. I think, especially as women, we have the capacity to do a lot of different things. There’s not just one (quote-unquote) “calling to motherhood.” I believe motherhood is more of an assignment, like you were saying, Elisa. It’s for a season. 

[Theme music]

Eryn: Happy Mother’s Day! Thank you to all of you who were willing to speak with us at the MOMCON Conference. If you’re planning to attend this year, be sure to keep an eye out for us. 

Vivian: And remember, all you moms out there, you are so valued for everything you do. Before we go, be sure to check out the God Hears Her Creative Journal Devotional or the God Sees Her Devotional as a great resource for quick moments of quiet time. You can find that and more at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher-dot-o.r.g. 

Eryn: Thank you for joining us, and don’t forget: God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His.

[Music]

Vivian: Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Jade Gustman and Mary Jo Clark. We also want to thank all of the women who allowed us to interview them at MOMCON. We’re so thankful for listeners like you. Thanks everyone.

[ODB theme]

Eryn:God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.