Ep. 158: A Journey Through Infertility
God Hears Her Podcast
Episode 158 – A Journey Through Infertility
Eryn Adkins with Alice Matagora
Alice: I think God used infertility to address these lies that I had about motherhood, to get me to the place where I wanted kids. You know, I went from like no, they’re going to ruin my life, my body, my marriage, all of that, like to the longer I didn’t have them; the more I wanted them. And then the more I was like wait, why do I feel like it would ruin my life? You know, where did…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …where’s this coming from? And I feel like that’s where God could answer and bring His truths.
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Voice: You’re listening to God Hears Her, a podcast for women where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His. Find out how these realities free you today on God Hears Her.
Eryn: Welcome to God Hears Her. I'm Eryn Adkins. For this conversation, I had the privilege of talking with Alice Matagora. We recorded this conversation while we were at the 2023 MOMCON Conference in Chicago. Alice and her husband walked through seven years of infertility together. While they were walking through those years, she learned multiple lessons that prepared her for motherhood and healed parts of her personal journey. So let’s kick it off by asking Alice who she was as a little girl.
Alice: Well, Alice, as a little girl, you can’t see me. But I am second generation Taiwanese-American. So my parents were immigrants. They immigrated over here. I was born in Connecticut. My first language was Mandarin and grew up and learned English with my parents. It was…
Eryn: How old were you?
Alice: Oh, you know, I mean just like born…
Eryn: Yeah, okay.
Alice: …just as I was learning to speak, they were learning the language too. So we all learned together. I made me like the kind of the translator…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …in…in a lot of ways for the family. So I grew up in Rochester, New York, upstate New York, home of the “Garbage Plate” which sounds as delicious as it’s just…it’s so amazing. Didn’t grow up in a Christian home.
Eryn: Okay.
Alice: Yeah, and so I think that shaped a lot of my early childhood views of myself, things like that.
Eryn: How did that shape your identity?
Alice: I just grew up very aware that I'm different. And I don’t fit in in the same way, you know. I don’t fit in with like the motherland. But I also don’t really fit in with the culture around. So like who am I even?
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: I think it like led to this identity crisis.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: I think there’s a strong value in Asian culture for performing well and being the best. So you know, I quickly learned if…if you’re not the best, then you’re nothing. And obviously, I wasn’t the best. And so I was nothing, which led to an identity crisis of sorts in middle school, high school, depression. Yeah, a friend noticed that I was depressed having these existential like thoughts and stuff. And so she invited me to church. And I remember being there so awkward. Like everybody’s singing the same songs. Everybody knows the same songs. And…and they all know the special claps, you know. I'm like the childhood claps to the songs, worship songs. And I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, I don’t know any of these, but being so intrigued at the same time. Like they are singing to a God their Father who is with them in trials, who they…like they really believe He would never leave them or forsake them or that we are their…His beloved. Like oh, you know, they…they really believe they are singing to somebody. So I stuck around for a little bit. Just I was too, I don’t know, ashamed that I didn’t know. So I like figured out the gospel on my own, because yeah, I was just too weird about asking somebody for help [inaudible]…
Eryn: Sure.
Alice: …the gospel eventually became a Christian.
Eryn: How old were you when you accepted Christ as your Savior?
Alice: I would say 14.
Eryn: Fourteen?
Alice: Yeah, 14. We went to a Chinese Christian church that like, service all like Mandarin speaking…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …in the greater Rochester area. So it…it became like a little safe zone, home space for me for all my other second generation Asian-American, Chinese-American, Taiwanese-American friends in the area. So yeah, I think I…I was drawn to the community. I think I was like more interested in the community at that point and having friends than actually walking with Jesus. I mean I loved walking with Jesus and was led by the greatest advisors and everything. But I think, me personally, I was like friends, boys over there.
Eryn: Yeah..
Alice: It’s true though. [inaudible]
Eryn: Hey, whatever brings us in. Whatever brings us in, right?
Alice: It’s anything.
Eryn: Did your parents end up understanding who God was also? And…
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: …okay.
Alice: Yeah, so we moved from Rochester to San Diego.
Eryn: [inaudible]
Alice: So I’ve spent like half my life in Rochester, half my life in southern California now. That’s where I live now with my husband. But my family moved from Rochester to San Diego. My parents, they were kind of rebuilding. My sister and I had a natural in with the local Chinese church. And so we were like okay, we’ll like go and visit and like try to build community there. My parents had nowhere to start, so they came to church with us just to meet new people, like just…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …get a foot in the door. And people invited them over for dinner, would share the gospel with them. They eventually came to faith. They were so, so, so cool. So yeah.
Eryn: Okay, so high school happens. And then does college happen? Or where do you go from there?
Alice: Yeah, I actually did a little stint out here right now. We’re in Chicago, Illinois. But I…I did a little stint at Urbana-Champaign which is only like two hours from here.
Eryn: Wow.
Alice: My freshman year in college I wanted to kind of go far away launch. And then I went…
Eryn: Spread your wings.
Alice: …spread my wings. But then I went back home, because I needed to get treatment for anorexia. I have a lot in my story.
Eryn: Yeah, yeah.
Alice: Yeah, so I went…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …I needed to get treatment for anorexia. My weight was really dangerously low by the time I left. And so I was brought home, went five weeks of in-patient treatment.
Eryn: Wow.
Alice: A more weeks, like 10 week intensive out-patient treatment program. Just needed a season of healing.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: I took a year off from school. I just felt like a loser, like I'm behind. You know I'm already like dumb, but like now I'm a year behind every...
Eryn: Right.
Alice: It doesn’t matter now, looking back. But like at the moment it felt like I'm just the ultimate loser and disappointment because…
Eryn: It’s like layers.
Alice: …yeah, layers of it.
Eryn: Sometimes our depression or things that we have inside of us come out in different ways.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: And that’s…
Alice: Yes, so my eating disorder was like my way…my like anxiety and trying to control my environment.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: Cause I was in a new place. I had…like my community wasn’t there anymore. And so I was kind of on my own. I don’t think I had a deep enough spiritual roots to thrive away from home. And them my family, like it’s in that weird season, in the middle of treatment where my family moved from Rochester to San Diego where I would continue treatment. So when it came time to go back to college, my family was like we don’t want to send you all the way back to Illinois. Like it’s so far. What if something happens again? So I applied to a bunch of schools in the southern California region. And the only one that would take sophomore transfers was a school called UC Irvine. I had never heard of it before. But that’s the path that God led me on. And that’s where I met the Navigators, which is the organization that I work with now.
Eryn: Okay.
Alice: If you don’t know what the Navigators is, it’s similar to Intervarsity or Campus Crusade. It’s collegiate ministries. So I met the Navigators and learned how to have roots, like have a relationship with Jesus. And I swear, God is so kind and a Master-Author in writing our stories of pain to lead us to the right place at the right time. So I was at an all-time low, you know. Once I started at Irvine, I just gained like 40 pounds from treatment. So you know I just didn’t feel great, was still really depressed and anxious, just feeling like I'm a loser. I'm behind. I don’t even know the school. What am I doing? You know, just a lot of…
Eryn: Purposelessness.
Alice: Yeah, and what am I doing here? But I just needed…I needed Jesus. I needed to go deep in the Word. I needed somebody to help me walk with Jesus. I…I needed help, you know.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: I needed spiritual guidance. So that’s what the Navigators are about, disciple-making ministry. Somebody discipled me and helped me learn that…okay, so I had a lot of head knowledge about God. And that didn’t change to…that didn’t change my heart, obviously, you know but [inaudible] in popping up. But I think somebody helping me learn to have a relationship with God really freed me from a lot of these like I mean, at the end of the year, I wasn’t struggling with my eating disorders anymore. It became like, you know, binge eating and then purging and everything like oh, they’re restricting all of it, all the good stuff, you know. And I wasn’t doing that anymore. Like for the life of me, on my own I could not stop my eating disorders. But at the end of that year, just from walking with Jesus, it just was back, and it’s like oh, I'm not like doing…
Eryn: This isn’t a temptation.
Alice: It’s not a temptation anymore. Yeah, I'm not drawn to that anymore. So…
Eryn: You know what’s so beautiful about your story is that there is a thread. And it’s…you’ve been taken to places where you’ve been alone or feel alone and you’re learning how to adapt and how to walk bravely in it.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: Whether it’s within school, whether it’s in with church, whether it’s within treatment.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: You’re so like the resiliency was birthed out of you at like five years old…
Alice: Yeah, yeah.
Eryn: …learning English with your parents to then walking into a treatment center.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: That’s such a brave and bold thing to just accept the help and know that relationships are the thing that get you there. Relationships are the thing that fostered something in you at church.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: And what brought you into knowing who Jesus is. And then relationships are what helped you in treatment. I just…there’s a common thread…
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: …of walking in it not knowing and then alone and finding community.
Alice: Community.
Eryn: What did you learn about vulnerability?
Alice: Cause it’s so [inaudible].
Eryn: Cause I feel like you probably are an expert, but to open yourself up to receiving people or allowing people to see you in your hardest moments and in your darkest thoughts.
Alice: Yeah, yeah, I always wonder. I took a sabbatical seven years ago. And it was like emergency sabbatical. We…at that time I was reading Brene Brown. She’s pretty much like the queen doctor of vulnerability, read her book, The Gifts of Imperfection. Loved it. And it transformed my life, and it showed me how vulnerability is really at the heart of living.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: Like it truly living whether you’re creating, like that takes vulnerability whether you’re [playing]. That takes vulnerability feeling joy. That takes vulnerability. Feeling pain, that takes vul…you know like life’s deepest moments requires us to be vul…vulnerable. And like if you think about it, faith requires us to be vulnerable. It’s hard…you can’t like have a hard heart. That’s kind of what I think of is like the opposite of vulnerable. Like the hard and guarded heart…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …and really have it be a bedrock of faith. Like faith requires for our hearts to be soft and for us to be unguarded and for us to really not know what the heck is going on. But I'm gonna trust You, God, you know.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: Like I'm very vulnerable. You know, I'm very vulnerable. I'm [inaudible] but I'm gonna trust You. And I think that’s really where faith is born, vulnerability.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: So you said you’re married.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: Do you all have conversations about kids? Like where was y’all’s yeah.
Alice: Yeah, yeah. When I first got married, I wanted…I think I wanted four.
Eryn: Okay.
Alice: Yeah, and so we talked about four. And then the closer I got to that like child-bearing age, the more I started freaking out about it where I’m like, no, I don’t want to have kids. I don’t want to have kids. It’s not fair. Like my life is gonna end. You get to still have your adventures, but my life is gonna end and…
Eryn: Yeah. I just want to pause. I feel like a lot of women identify with that.
Alice: Really?
Eryn: I'm sure listening. I have…I mean I have…bonus mom. But still I thought my life was going to end.
Alice: Yeah. Like my career’s going to end. My body’s going to change forever. Everything is going to end. And you still get to be handsome. And it’s like go have your adventures and work with college women that just keep getting younger and younger. Or they stay the same age, but your wife just keeps getting older and older.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: You know, just all these lies I think about motherhood and how it would ruin my life. And I think those were things that I heard just growing up about how kids like ruin your life, your marriage, your body, all of that. And…and so the closer I got to child-bearing age, the more those years started to really pop up where it went from four kids to no kids. I don’t want any kids, you know.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: But we did start trying to have kids I think about five years into marriage…five years and so around 30ish we started trying for kids. And mostly because like, well we should. I'm about at that age. The first couple years, we I mean there was [no] success. You know we didn’t have…we couldn’t…we didn’t get pregnant. And so it was like oh, well that’s really weird. We should probably like look into that, you know, and just got more testing done. And it was just unexplained infertility, you know. We walked through infertility for a solid seven years, seven years of our marriage of infertility before God gave us our two precious little ones. But it was a journey. And I think God used infertility to address these lies that I had about motherhood, to get me to the place where I wanted kids. You know, I went from like, no, they’re going to ruin my life, my body, my marriage, all of that like to the longer I didn’t have them, the more I wanted them. And then the more I was like wait, why do I feel like they would ruin my life? You know where…where is this coming from? And I feel like that’s where God could answer them and bring His truths and point out maybe the origin story of some of those lies. Where that came from was I mean like I…I was firstborn. I think I came at not a great time in my parents’ careers. My mom had to stop her PhD program. And she had to stop. Her life stopped; you know. And it’s like well that came from I think what I heard about me, you know. And…and so that’s where the Lord was able to enter into like some of my wounding and my lies like I'm not wanted, or I need to prove that I'm worth existing. And to get me to that place where I wanted children, I’ve been wondering if God has been wanting to break that generational lie or generational belief, to redeem it to fit more like, no, children are a blessing form the Lord. I mean I know that He used the infertility to get me to the place where I want my kids. And I'm so grateful for them. and there are moments where yes, I…it’s hard. I have to choose my kids over my career. And I…an earlier Alice would have I think resented the kids…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …motherhood, all of it, you know. But I think me, older Alice now, like I'm just…just glad that they’re here. I'm just glad that they’re here. And when I get to that place where I'm like I'm starting to resent them, then it’s like no, but I waited for little person. I'm just so glad that they’re here. So…
Eryn: You shift your perspective from bitterness to gratitude.
Alice: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Eryn: What do you feel like the biggest lie was in your infertility season?
Alice: One of the biggest lies that I struggled with, especially in the early years of infertility when it was really starting to get hard, was that it was my fault. And I think we as women, we’re so much more tied to our cycles. It could be…it could be the guy’s…you know…
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …it could be like on the [guy’s] side. But I just think I was…the woman who is like tracking her cycle every month, taking temperatures, like I just had so many lies about like it’s because of your eating disorder. It’s because you messed with your [inaudible] so selfish earlier, and…and you messed with your body too much. And now your body can’t carry life. And I think in the moment, it’s like God, don’t You see us? Don’t You hear us? Don’t You care, you know? And…and then this is where like my workspace versus grace space can sneak in and just it…it just highlights that one. But God, we’re in ministry. We’re doing these things for You. Like don’t…shouldn’t we have a baby? Like it all depends on what we do, and just like things are earned. It’s not earned. It’s all…everything’s the grace of God, right? But I think those were some lies that I really wrestled with. And then I just had a kind doctor at the end say, like oh, you think it’s from that? Like I'm just going to release you from that. If you’re still getting your cycles, like your periods regularly, like that’s not it. I'm just gonna release you from that. You didn’t mess up your body beyond hope. So…
Eryn: Oh, that had to just feel freeing.
Alice: It felt so freeing to hear that from a doctor. Because it was a…it was a doctor, not…not one of my regular doctors who was like, oh yeah. No, this is like what happened is because of your eating disorders. And this is it. Okay, bye. You know it was like a two-minute [inaudible]. And it was like wait, what? You know so then I carried that with me. It’s my fault. I…I did this to myself.
Eryn: And that’s exactly what the enemy wants to do. He wants to use our past to impact the way we see ourselves in the future.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: With our relationship with Jesus.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: And create a divide and live in that space.
Alice: Yeah, yeah, so I still am writing about our journey.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: I mean I think the thing that’s so weird about infertility, in the middle of it is you don’t know if there’s gonna be a happy ending. Like you don’t know what the ending’s going to be. And so it’s always this wide open “to be continued” you know. Like God, are You gonna answer? Are You not going to answer? And just years of being in the midst of…just…just in the desert, right?
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: In…in the…in the barren desert. And at the same time, I felt like He was asking me to hold onto hope through it. You know like these little nuggets of like, will you trust in Me? Will you hope? Will you keep praying? So Psalm 73, it’s like you know, “My heart and my flesh may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” So okay, God. If nothing else, will You be my portion? Like are You enough? If nothing else, if I never have my baby, will You be? That I just like clung to. Cause month after month, you have this like painful reminder, a painful, bloody reminder that like you’re not pregnant.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: You know again, another month. Time is still ticking. Okay, I had a dream from before my husband and I met that I…I was like walking through a hospital, and I heard a baby cry. And I knew it was my baby. I knew it was my baby. I found her name was Isabelle, which is my middle name, Isabelle. And she had kind of greenish hazel eyes. And I picked her up and held her and just kept saying, “My Isabelle, my Isabelle.” And it woke up, cause I was single then. And I was not ready to have kids. Nobody was on the radar. But I remember waking up sad that Isabelle was [inaudible]. And so as we’re walking through infertility, I had forgotten about that dream. And I was at an infertility conference, and that dream came back to my mind….
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: …where I felt like God was asking me to hope.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: You know but it’s [sometimes] like is this just want I want to hear, God, or is this…
Eryn: Right, is this falsehood?
Alice: …falsehood? Is Isabelle real? Am I a prophet? You know like I…I’ve rarely had dreams like actually come to fruition. So I knew I wasn’t a prophet. But…but God, are You asking me to hope? And then you know, Mark, I think, 11 where it talks about, if you believe…even if you…if you say to this mountain. I was like on a spiritual retreat. And I was at in…in…up in the mountains and by a lake. And so like it was very profound like Jesus saying, if you believe and say to this mountain like be thrown into the lake, it’ll happen. You know and I just felt like God, are you asking me to trust You to spend like six years of nothing? You want me to trust You for biological kids? So I was at this conference where I was speaking. And a man, he connected with my husband cause he connected with my story and wanted to get to know me. And my husband shared, we don’t have kids. We’ve been trying for a while. And this man, he was like oh, can I pray for your wife? Can I meet her and pray for your wife? And when my husband told me that, I was like another person who wants to pray for my barren…like I’ve had so many people pray for my barren womb to open that like you know whatever. But sure, he can…yes, he can pray. And I'm…you know, we met him and everything. And this was in a season. Okay, so we had just gone through our third-fourth…fourth and final IUI which is infertility treatment. But the one before the big boy, IVF, right? And so we had exhausted our finances. I had just come back to full-time ministry with the Navigators. And so like in our ministry, everything that we own, everything we make is because people, they give to our ministry, right?
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: So…so I had just left my job as therapist and my nice benefits which covered infertility treatments and I'm like God, was this a mistake for me to come? Like did we hear from You wrong for me to come back into full-time ministry? Do I go back and make money and like have benefits? And so I'm…I'm at this fundraiser that I’m speaking at. And this guy wants to pray over my womb. And I'm like okay. And so we just talking and getting to know each other. And then he offers to pay for us to do IVF.
Eryn: Wow.
Alice: Yeah, which it is out of nowhere. And the [inaudible] for IVF is like $25,000 dollars.
Eryn: Wow.
Alice: Yeah, so he offers, this stranger who heard our story and had an impression on us, offered to pay for us to do IVF.
Eryn: And you pursued it.
Alice: And we pursued it and went through. And so…so he paid for most of it. And…and my husband’s parents covered the rest. But yeah, no problem. We…we went through with it. I know I just talk about like God, You’re the God who sees. Like You’re the God who sees Hagar. You’re the God who sees me and the cries of my heart. But even still, the IVF process like it increases your chance of getting pregnant. But it’s still not a done deal. Like there are still faith steps along the way like, if this part of IVF fails, then this whole thing will fail.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: And we’re no kids. You know if this part fails, then…then we’re back to square one. If this part fails, you know. And so it felt like still this faith journey of like God, would You give us enough and not too much, God? Would You let this procedure work? You know, and so we walked through the whole IVF process. We were able to have our son who just turned four, Regi.
Eryn: Oh.
Alice: Named after Dad and [inaudible] and Clementine, who is 20 months old and…
Eryn: Oh.
Alice: …yeah, they’re the cutest and the sweetest and the sweetest gifts [inaudible].
Eryn: Oh my goodness.
Alice: Yeah, I mean I…
Eryn: What a beautiful miracle story.
Alice: Yeah, [God] is crazy. I don’t even…yeah.
Eryn: I mean…I…
Alice: I never would have written that, you know. But I…into my…I never would have g…there’s just something that happens to people. And like I don’t know, show…shows or something.
Eryn: Yes.
Alice: It just doesn’t happen to people in real life.
Eryn: Well, I love your prayer. I wrote it down. Are you asking me to hope?
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: Like that’s a powerful prayer.
Alice: Yeah, you have to be vulnerable.
Eryn: I was about to say, going back to vulnerability, sometimes it’s easy to go you know what? I’ll just accept and not hope for something big out of fear that You’ll withhold or You won’t provide.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: Some women that are listening right now, they may be in the middle of the five years that you were in…
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: …of the seven. And…and they may be wondering like, oh it’s painful to hear that because I don’t…I'm not promised that on the other side.
Alice: Yes, yeah we’re not. We are…my husband and I…we were not promised…I know this is like a freak situation that like doesn’t happen to everybody, you know.
Eryn: Right.
Alice: And like what a gift that is and also that it’s not promised to us or to anybody, so, yeah.
Eryn: During that infertility season, how did your community show up? And how did many people not show up that…that you wish would have? And I ask that because I think we don’t know how to talk about infertility. And we…and we don’t want to like…we don’t want to…it’s like the elephant in the room.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: But we also want to acknowledge the elephant cause it’s painful.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: So like could…what would you say like…cause I’d love for me to learn and for anybody listening how to show up for a friend that’s experiencing infertility.
Alice: Yeah, oh man. I just think the greatest gift is presence, like just someone’s presence with, in the [inaudible], in the darkness, somebody who will like kind of like Job’s friends, you know, when they just sat with in the beginning. Not try to explain or try to over spiritualize but just to be with. So I…I think having a small group of people pray as you go through your procedures. Pray for each step. So that they know what’s going on. They, you know, people would send meals, like just in the whole process like just you know. We just had a transfer. So like okay, here’s…here’s a meal. We’ll take care of dinner for tonight for you. And okay, so let me tell you. I did not know when I first started writing about infertility, like how God would answer.
Eryn: Yeah.
Alice: And so when we announced our pregnancy, I…just it was like the biggest celebration. I feel like these kids are the most wanted kids and pray. And that’s…that’s my core like I'm unwanted. My life is a mistake. It ruins like, you know, I'm so…I still remember after I gave birth to my son, right? As you know right after they like pull him out and my husband and I are crying. And the baby nurse is there. I shared what just really briefly like yeah, we walked through infertility, and this is…he’s been so like long-awaited for. And she says, he’s so wanted. And I just felt like that was God seeing me again like this whole, yes, he is so wanted. They are both so wanted.
Eryn: I would love for you to speak to the woman that’s listening right now that feels really scared to pray in hope.
Alice: Yeah.
Eryn: And doesn’t know how maybe to be fully vulnerable, cause she’s scared that she could be rejected or denied. And that could be in the season of infertility. It could be in the season of waiting for a husband. It could be in the season of whatever she is experiencing right now. But maybe because of your journey, maybe it is infertility. But would you just speak to her?
Alice: Well, beloved, I would say that you will never fail if you put your hope in the Lord. It’s so easy in this whole process to put our hope in the doctors and in the treatments and in the statistics and in the money and in the processes. But in the end, you will not fail if you put your hope in the Lord. My heart and, you know, our spirits, our flesh, our bodies might fail. But God, if He is the strength of your heart, if He is your portion, that is enough. And you are enough, and you did nothing wrong. You did nothing wrong. This is just the reality of the broken world that we live in, the brokenness of our bodies, the brokenness of this world. But you did nothing wrong. You are enough. God is enough. And may He be the strength of your heart and your portion forever as you walk the lonely, dark path of infertility. And…and I promise you, He…He will not leave you or forsake you.
[music]
Eryn: What a beautiful story. We know that not every infertility journey ends with becoming a parent of a biological child. So we want to take a minute to let you know that you are not alone. Well, before we go, be sure to check out our website to find a link for Alice’s book How to Save the World. You can find that and more at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher.org. Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget, God hears you. He sees you, and He loves you because you are His.
[music]
Eryn: Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Jade Gustman and Mary Jo Clark. We also want to thank Barry and Kevin for all their help and support. Thanks, everyone.
God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.
