Life Through the Psalms

God Hears Her Podcast 

Episode 204 – Life Through the Psalms with Adrienne Camp 

Vivian Mabuni with Adrienne Camp 

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Adrienne: My first initial thought was that they’re all praise or majority praise. That was like the Psalms, that’s all about praise the Lord, you know what I mean. And as I started studying it, 40% of the Psalms are lament psalms, and a lot of those are communal. And so when the psalmists are writing these things, like for instance, even David’s Psalm 51, “Create me a clean heart O God.” Or these laments of like, “How long, Lord Jesus?” Like, “How long, God, like where are you?” All these are these communal cries of faith and lament for the brokenness. And so I feel like the Psalms gives us the perfect language to approach God. 

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Elisa: You are listening to, God Hears Her, a podcast for women, where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you. Join our community of encouraging one another and learning to lean on God through Scripture, story, and conversation at godhearsher.org. God hears her. Seek, and she will find.  

Vivian: Everyone, you are in for such a treat today. We get to interview amazing people all the time on God Hears Her, but it’s extra, extra special when we know each other in real life. So… 

Adrienne: Yes. 

Vivian: …we have on today’s episode, Adrienne Camp, Adie.  

Adrienne: Hi.  

Vivian: And she…hello, hello, hello. And so what a treat, because we get to dive into your world. And hear all the stories. But before we jump into all of that, I just want people to know that Adie has an incredible background. She…you’ll hear in her accent, she’s from South Africa. She’s married to oh, Jeremy Camp, so that’s where the last name Camp comes from—mother of three and author. We’re gonna talk about some of the great work that she’s been doing. We’ve also known each other through seminary. And so it’s just so fun, Adie, we get to have a conversation. It’s like we’re sitting over coffee at a coffee shop. So welcome to God Hears Her. 

Adrienne: Oh, thank you. Any opportunity to be with you. I’m like, yes, I’m all in.  

Vivian: Oh, I know.  

Adrienne: But I love just what you guys do and just such a beautiful message of God hearing us. Right? Yeah.  

Vivian: Mm. Yeah. Well, I would love for our listeners to hear some of your background, like how your relationship with God really got solidified. 

Adrienne: Yeah. You know, I grew up in South Africa, but I was born in a Christian home that I would say was Christian, definitely by outward standards. But internally, we had a lot of turmoil in our home. Not all bad. My parents are amazing. I love them so much, but I think there was a lot of baggage that everybody was…was dealing with. But I just…I came to know the love of the Lord at a very, very, very young age. We were involved in Christian education under the apartheid regime in South Africa. My dad was the principal of one of the first multiracial schools in South Africa, which was just a really… 

Vivian: Wow. 

Adrienne: …beautiful and incredible way for me to experience, um, that part of the world growing up. But I always wanted more out of Jesus. I always wanted more out of my life, uh, just to make a difference and um, to impact the world around me. And I got an opportunity to be in a band when I was 17 years old. We got signed to an American record label. But they basically just said, “You need to move to America with everybody.” So 11 of us packed up, left everything, our homes, family, church, everything. And moved to Nashville.  

Vivian: How did your family handle that?  

Adrienne: I’m the baby of the family.  

Vivian: Okay, okay.  

Adrienne: So I’m sure it was a little easier for my parents, you know what they say with the youngest, we get to sort of break all the rules that everyone else had to strictly adhere to. 

Vivian: For sure. 

Adrienne: Um, I think my parents…it’s funny. As much as there was some sort of like instability spiritually, I think they always did hear the voice of the Lord. And I think my dad, especially, I think had just this sort of prophetic sense that God was in…in my story. But I think there was a lot of grief actually, cause I don’t think any of us thought it would be long term. But of course I fell in love with Jeremy. And so all of our plans kind of went out the window, cause I very much probably thought I would go back to South Africa and pursue a life there, or maybe even England, you know?  

Vivian: Mm-hmm.  

Adrienne: But, um, when I met Jeremy, I, to be honest with you, I was not in a good place at all. I was just so jaded by the things that I had experienced in the Christian music industry, just so much, uh, hypocrisy and um, I’m not trying to say I have it all together by any means, but just a very extreme version of saying one thing and doing another. And I…I was quite confused by church people, you know? I was like, I love Jesus. I’m good with the Lord. I wasn’t super grounded in Scripture at that point as well. Grew up in some little bit more of like Charismatic church. But, um, just felt really jaded by a lot. And I remember one day the Lord just really sort of breaking into my mess and just saying, this is not what I have for you. I’ve got more. It was around about that point. I was 21. I was living with a bunch of girls, and I’d said to one of my housemates, I just said, I…I know I’ve got to get my life right with the Lord. I need to be serious about Him. But I remember just getting on my knees. And just…I was brutally, brutally, brutally honest with the Lord. And I just was like, God, I have no desire to read Scripture. I’ve got some very difficult people in my life that I have no love for, to be honest with you. Not to um, be cheesy, but I had a legit like psalmist moment of lament and surrender and just sitting before the Lord being very, very honest about the place that I was in. 

Vivian: Mm-hmm.  

Adrienne: And I just said, I need You to do something in my heart. I need You to change me. I need You to give me a heart for Scripture. I need You to give me a heart for people. Cause I’m…I’m out. I’m out on all of this stuff, but I know where I want to be. And um, that was probably about three or four months before I met Jeremy. And so when I met him, we were not…it was not love at first sight at all. We were not each other’s types. But I was really blown away by his testimony. So for just anyone listening, if you don’t know, Jeremy lost his first wife to cancer.  

Vivian: Mm-hmm.  

Adrienne: And I met him about a year or so after that. They both had the most beautiful testimony of just what it is like to actually walk by faith. And um…and I think I had seen so much inauthenticity that when I looked at Jeremy, I was like, okay, you don’t stare death in the face, watch your wife suffer, watch your wife die, and then still get up and say all the cheesy “Christianese” thing. Like this is when the real stuff comes out. I just kind of cornered him, and I was like, I want to know everything. I was so hungry for truth. I was so hungry for like a real connection with the Lord. And I think from there on it was just kind of this crazy wild ride. We’ve got three kids now. We’ve been married for 21 years.  

Vivian: I love it. Okay, so I’m curious, going back to that time of prayer, it sounded like there was turmoil without and within.  

Adrienne: Absolutely.  

Vivian: Was it kind of a pinnacle culmination of the frustration? Was there something that kind of moved you into that space to be on your knees?  

Adrienne: Oh yeah, very much so. As a young kid and then also being raised in the Charismatic church, I probably gave my heart to God, like committed my life to Jesus like so many times. And there are definitely significant moments in my life… 

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: …where Jesus met me in such a tangible, tangible way. But I would say as a young adult where it was like, okay, this is the definitive moment of my life where I am…I’m all in.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: Um, where I really genuinely committed my…my life to God and really where I think, in a sense, Jesus got into the driving seat of my life. You know what I mean? As opposed to me being there. But as you say, it was definitely a culmination of internal and external. I think there was this definite sense, again, of the Holy Spirit, just saying like, I’m…I’m calling you for more. I was starting to get involved in some relationships, nothing crazy, but in relationships that were just not beneficial. 

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: The hardness of my heart was probably really scary to me. Like I said, I just…I could’ve cared less. I was like, ugh, I’m over everything, you know? Um, and some of that is the church is really difficult to deal with sometimes.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: The things that we see, we are right to feel disturbed about, you know?  

Vivian: Right.  

Adrienne: And I think at a young age, I didn’t know what to do with some of the things that I saw, and so I just hardened my heart to everything instead of realizing like, oh, God actually calls us to something more. And so I think it was all this sort of, like you say, this culmination of these internal struggles of what I had seen, of who I was becoming, of just going, I’m not okay with where I am. But I don’t know what to do about it. But I think because of the framework of knowing God’s love just at such an early age, I knew that I could be honest. I knew that He was safe enough for me. Like I didn’t have to pretend because I knew that God already saw it all. And so because I knew God saw it all and I couldn’t hide anything from Him, it was just one of those things that I was like, okay, God. Like I…I know that You can help me. I know that You can change my heart was a hugely, hugely pivotal time in my life. I mean, I can see just the sort of trajectory of where my life was headed. 

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: And after that moment, it was my, as we would call it, your come to Jesus moment, you know? And the Lord really did change my heart. I remember going into one of my roommates and just telling her the way that God had spoken to me of just, I…I know I’ve got to, something’s got to shift for me. And so what we started doing, and this has worked for me multiple times in my life, was bringing people…like walking those moments out in community and not being alone.  

Vivian: Yes.  

Adrienne: Bring people into the places you want to grow.  

Vivian: Yes.  

Adrienne: And so I said to my roommate, her name’s Kat, and I just said to her, like, I’m not gonna try to read my Bible from Gen…Genesis to Rev…Revelation. But what I am gonna try to do is just be in Scripture every day until something stands out to me.  

Vivian: Mm-hmm.  

Adrienne: And so I would, this is like…this is before probably even texting. Cause this is a long time ago, 20 something years ago. And so I would just call her and leave a voice message and just be like, “Kat, I read Colossians today and I just loved where Paul was talking about like, be strong in the Lord.” And I would just stop there. Like that would be it. And then…then I would sit, and I would just marinate on like, what does it mean to be strong in the Lord? Or what does it mean when Paul says, “I pray that you are enlightened.” And I would just kind of…I…I just wouldn’t…I wasn’t on this big mission to all of a sudden be this massive, big giant of a Christian. I just knew that I needed God to be real to me. It was like, give us this day, our daily bread. I was like… 

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: …I just need something from Jesus to help me get my life back on track, to get my mind back on track. My…my heart, like I just knew I needed to be with God every day and carrying that with me just throughout the day. 

Vivian: How rich it is to have the conversations around the Scriptures that we process, and we learn even from what other people are learning. I love that picture of community and bringing people in. Um, I’m curious because you did write a Bible study called As For Me: Life Through the Lens of the Psalms. Why the Psalms? Tell me about the title. Unpack that a little bit.  

Adrienne: So I was chatting with Lifeway, that’s…that was my publisher. And they…they actually…we just had this sort of like, if you were gonna write a Bible study, what would it be on? I’m not actually necessarily, until this moment, a Bible study writer. This was my first one. And I…I had an amazing experience. But it was funny because I had, unbeknownst to them, been studying the Psalms. And I just decided one year I want to go for a deep, deep dive. And so I had like all my commentaries and all these… 

Vivian: Yes. 

Adrienne: …things stacked up on the Psalms. And I’d already been in that and studying them a few months into that journey when they approached me and was like, okay, if you were gonna write a Bible study, we’re thinking the Psalms. We’re curious what you’re thinking. And I was like, oh my gosh, I’m in the Psalms right now. So that’s kind of how… 

Vivian: Wow. 

Adrienne: …that came about. But the phrase “as for me” was something that kept on standing out to me as I was reading through the Psalms. I don’t remember how many times, but a ton of times, David and other psalmists are basically like. You know, all of these things are going around, but as for me. And it’s…was almost like this constant declaration of his heart commitment.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: Or even, and again, a community setting of this is who we’re gonna be, no matter what’s going on around us. Obviously, we’re familiar of even when Joshua challenges everybody, and he’s like, you know, you can do this and you can do this. “But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” And so it…it’s a little bit of that kind of same language of, no matter what’s going on around me, I’m gonna set my heart to seek the Lord. It’s such a message that we need in our culture. There’re so many opinions, so many things, so many polarizing things. But I think the heart of it is, is that we cannot lose sight of who Jesus is and what He’s called as to be as a church. So it’s sort of that solidifying declaration of, all right. As for me, like this is who I’m gonna be.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: So that was the title of it. There’s 150 Psalms. so definitely bit off, way more than I can chew. 

[laughter] 

Adrienne: And I…I decided to take it from a thematic standpoint. So the book of Psalms is actually divided into five different segments that are based on the five books of the Bible: the Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. But I decided to take it from more of a theme. There’s a lot of themes within Psalms. So I went through seven themes, which was, I don’t remember all seven that I did—but praise, wisdom, lament, the royal, which is like the Messianic prophetic, imprecatory, which is the kind of like anguish, you know. And I decided to write just sort of like a fly overview. It doesn’t go through every single one of the Psalms, but kind of more just these themes that are kind of going through the whole book of Psalms.  

Vivian: Oh, that is so beautiful. Now I’m curious to kind of circle back to some of your story. So as you kind of got right with the Lord in a really authentic way, there was just really a sense that you were serious about your faith. How did you experience a healing even to reengage with this…this world? How did you handle that? What happened? What did God do in your life?  

Adrienne: I think, I mean, I have a huge heart for this generation, because a lot of their frustrations I did feel, and I feel still.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: Um, but I do actually think the Psalms provides such a perfect framework. Because my first initial thought was that they’re all praise or majority praise.  

Vivian: Mm-hmm. Yeah.  

Adrienne: Like I was like the Psalms, that’s all about praise the Lord. You know what I mean?  

Vivian: Yeah. Yeah.  

Adrienne: And as I started studying it, 40% of the Psalms are lament psalms. And a lot of those are communal. And so when the psalmists are writing these things, like for instance, even David’s Psalm 51 “Create me a clean heart, oh God.” All these laments of like, how long Lord Jesus, like how long God? Like, where are you? All these are these communal cries of faith and lament for the brokenness. And so I feel like the Psalms gives us the perfect language to approach God. This was written within a covenanted relationship with God and His people. And so what that is, is that God provides this framework going, this is who I’m going to be to you. This is who you need to be back to Me to stay in this covenant relationship. But the Psalms had this like cry to God going like, You’ve…You’ve promised us these certain things. Where are You in this? You know. And I think God wants us to cry out to Him and that He wants us to feel the brokenness, because I think then what it does is make us long for the real thing, and that’s Him. And so no political structure is gonna fix our world. Like… 

Vivian: That’s right.  

Adrienne: …I don’t think there’s gonna be peace in our world. I don’t think that that’s the plan. The plan is for us to have a new heavens and a new Earth. And so all of this brokenness in our world today should cause us to lament. And again, I think the Psalms gives us the perfect language… 

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: …of just us crying out to the Lord. And I think sometimes as well within…within our churches, we’re so scared of questioning God. Like, is this the wrong thing? But if you think about it, a lament is actually a cry of faith because it’s a call to asking God to show His character strong.  

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: So in a…in a sense it’s a declaration of faith going. I know who You are.  

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: I know what You can provide me. So provide it for me. Like, why are You delaying, you know? It’s a declaration of faith for…for God’s promises, for His character. And then I think there’s this thing that a lot of scholars call the shift in the Psalms. And you’ll see, honestly, it’s in every single one of them except one in all of the Psalms. Psalm 88 is the only one that has…doesn’t have this shift. But every single time there’s this lament and this…this cry out of “God, where are You?” There’s this pause, and then we see this shift of this declaration of faith. Or it’s almost like the psalmist’s heart becomes satisfied of ah, but I know that Your plans are good and unfailing, and Your love towards us is unending.  

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: And God, you’ve been faithful in the past. So even though I don’t feel it now, I know that You can do it again.  

Vivian: Yes.  

Adrienne: And so it’s this beautiful shift that you see time and time and time again. And I think that that’s what happens to us. I think when we sit and we honestly and genuinely engage God with what we’re really feeling, God meets us, you know? 

Vivian: Yeah. 

Adrienne: Um, and it doesn’t always necessarily mean that our circumstances change. But the Spirit carries us.  

Vivian: Yes. 

Adrienne: God meets us in those places. Even for the one place in Psalms where it doesn’t shift, it shows us that God holds space for even that. That even in the times where circumstances are still dark, um, and sad and depressing and relationships and marriages or whatever it might be, are not restored and addiction is not freed. It’s God still actually holds that space in Scripture for us to see that even that is sacred to Him, and even that is a place that He’s going, I’m still actually going to, um, meet you in even that.  

Vivian: Mm. That is so beautiful, so powerful and so timely. And it’s so interesting because I think about even David’s life or your life and my life. There…there are times when it’s just deep, deep anguish. But that’s not the whole of life either…  

Adrienne: No.  

Vivian: …to define who God is based on a moment in time. And I often think about Christmas cards. Everyone’s eyes are open; the dog is smiling. I mean, the lighting is beautiful, and we have no idea what the picture is before taking that photo. And the picture after… 

Adrienne: [inaudible] versus reality. 

Vivian: Exactly. And I think sometimes we can take Instagram and think that that’s real life. When we don’t see the bigger picture, the zoom out, and we don’t know what happened before or what happened after, but… 

Adrienne: Exactly. 

Vivian: …how beautiful that God, um, knows and He meets us, and He sees us, and He hears us, and He’s not threatened by our honesty. 

Adrienne: No, not at all. He welcomes it.  

Vivian: And I just think that that is such a good reminder. I think about, I think it’s in Psalm 62 where it says, “Pour out your heart before the Lord.” And for me, I generally uh, write my prayers out and then I’m able to look back on it. How do you pour out your heart before the Lord? And how is it that you are able to express the…the lament or the anguish, or the disappointment or the joy? What does that look like in Adie’s life?  

Adrienne: I don’t have a specific way every day, but I do journal a lot. So I would say probably journaling is my first go-to. The second is we were musicians in our house. And so I’ll play worship songs and just cry my eyes out. And I’ll pull ones that resonate with me and just pray and sing. And then I, for whatever reason, I love those like lament moments of prayer for me happen in the shower often.  

Vivian: Mm.  

Adrienne: And so I do. I get on my knees in the shower and just let the water hit my back and cover my face and my eyes. And that’s just where those like deeper places of prayer happen for me and just where I get to sort of, in a sense, really cry out to the Lord and even just be still before Him. Um, but it looks different every day and depending on the season that we’re in. One thing I do long for, I think, is for more spaces for us as the church to lament together. I think we’re lacking something for us to even be aware of the burdens we’re all carrying.  

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: Um, some of them we all know obviously because we…we’re living in a similar culture, so we’re carrying some of that same sort of anxiety. But I think about the Psalms in particular and how they are, this communal reminder of God’s faithfulness. And I think we need a little bit more of that for us to more speak into like, we’re in this together.  

Vivian: Right. 

Adrienne: This is who God is to us, you know. So I’m not sure what that space is supposed to look like necessarily, but I do think about that a lot of just like, I wish there was this more communal reminder of God’s faithfulness more than just sort of like church on Sundays, and maybe it’s a moment in church where we take that moment together. 

Vivian: I love that. What advice would you give to a woman who’s really struggling with her engagement with the Word of God, with trusting the Lord. If they were to ask you, like Adie, give me some advice on how can I engage in the Word, and how can I trust God? Because I feel jaded. I feel a little lost, and I…I can kind of see where my path could diverge, but I’m not sure how to go about doing that. What kind of advice would you give to that woman?  

Adrienne: I think the first thing is be honest. Be honest about where you are. It is okay to feel exhausted. It’s okay to feel like you don’t want to read. And I think that first, if we are still trying to pretend, it’s gonna keep us stuck. So I think be honest about where you are and what you feel. Tell God about it. And then I would say, do something practical. What’s your capacity? So if it is, I’ve got 15 minutes. I mean, there’re so many tools right now, we are spoiled with an immense amount of richness. Like things like this podcast, you know. I mean, I’ve got so many incredible friends of mine that have podcasts that are rich, like theologically. They’re deep, deep, deep. There’s audio apps where you can listen to the Bible. So if you’re super busy, just pop your headphones on, and listen to Scripture. I think we do need to familiarize ourselves with the whole of Scripture. I think it is important that we don’t overlook the Old Testament and we’re not gonna get the full picture. 

Vivian: Yeah.  

Adrienne: The New Testament is actually halfway in the story, even though it’s the climax.  

Vivian: Mm-hmm.  

Adrienne: But we need the whole why, like why does it matter that Jesus came? Why do we need a Savior? More than just us being a bunch of bad people that need a whole lot of help. Like we…we need to hear some of the historical meanings. And that’s part of actually why I went to seminary. It’s not cause I have time for it at all, but because I just…I wanted to hear a deeper story. And I mean, the beauty of who God is, is He meets us in the smallest amounts, but like He is endless. So we can dig and dig and dig and learn, and learn and learn for the rest of our lives, and we will continue to be wowed by who He is. 

Vivian: That’s so good. I would love to hear if there is anything that has been significant for you in your relationship with the Lord or your understanding of Him through seminary? Like something that is…that’s been unexpected maybe.  

Adrienne: Wow. Honestly, a lot. I probably went to seminary because I still felt like growing up in an evangelical realm, uh, there were just a lot of holes missing to me, things that didn’t make sense. I needed a different perspective; I wanted something deep. Um, but I think I underestimated the whole part of like learning to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This has been such a different part of me experiencing God on such a theological, like mental level. Um, and it’s been difficult in some ways. Because I’m such a, like heart and soul person and to…so to almost stop and just experience God on such a sort of cerebral level… 

Vivian: Right. 

Adrienne: …has been such a shift for me. But I’m actually so grateful for it, because I feel like it’s created a new framework far more than I ever imagined. Like the story is so much more beautiful the more I’ve dug. Like even talking about like covenant relationship and what does the kingdom of God actually mean? Because again, being raised in a Christian framework, I’ve heard some of these things my whole life and kind of, to be honest with you, I had a sort of an inkling of what they might have meant, but I just had no clue. And so just as I’ve dug in and allowed to really, really learn and stretch my brain, I mean, sometimes I’m like, my brain is too tight. I do not even understand, but just allow myself to be stretched. I think I’ve just fallen in love with God in a way that I never even imagined I would. Cause I feel like everything about Him and who He is and His relationship for and with His people is so much more deeper and so much more beautiful than I even imagined. And then it makes me love Jesus more. And I’m like, oh my gosh, the disciples are so cool. And yeah, and then how do we be the kingdom of God to the world around us remembering we are not of this world, this is not our home. But God has something so much better for us. And so how do we be light and love to the people around us in tangible ways?  

Vivian: Oh, that’s so good. Well, I…I know that for me, what I’ve so appreciated in getting to know you, Adie, is that you have a hunger for the Lord and a kindness about you. And it’s such a beautiful combination, because you are accessible and wise. So… 

Adrienne: Thank you, Viv. 

Vivian: …whenever you share things, it’s like, oh, I need to write that down. It’s so good. So I appreciate that. And I appreciate so much your willingness to share your heart and share your story. I think that what you’ve brought to us and even helping us understand the Psalms better and the framework of the Psalms and practically how to engage and to understand lament, all of that is both practical, inspiring, and I think helpful for what we are all currently living in… 

Adrienne: Yeah. 

Vivian: …right now. So I am so grateful for that.  

Adrienne: Thank you.  

Vivian: Would you be willing to pray, pray for the women listening, maybe specifically just pray for their growing love for the Lord and for the Bible and the investment into learning to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind? I’d love for you to close us out in prayer. That would be so great.  

Adrienne: Yeah. Lord Jesus, we’re so grateful for You. God, I’m so grateful for who You are. Um, I’m so thankful, God, that You know that we are dust, that we have so many inadequacies, Lord, that we have so many struggles, that it is so hard to wrap our minds around things going on around us, Father, and even elements of who You are, God. But I’m so grateful for Your kindness and Your patience and Your mercy towards us, Lord Jesus. And so I just pray for anybody listening to this right now, God, who feels stuck but wants more of You. I just pray, God, that You would show them what that next step forward is God. But above all else, Lord Jesus, that they would just remember that You love them and You just desire to be with us, God. You are Emmanuel, God with us. And that is why You came God, why You’ve created this framework for us to live in You and to have our being in You Lord Jesus. And so I just pray that we would never lose sight of the reason why we do the things we do. Um, it’s for You. It’s for relationship with You, Lord God. And so I just pray that, first and foremost, God, people would feel loved by You and seen by You, Lord God, and that they would just have a stirring and a desire to take that step, Lord. Even as we were talking earlier, don’t be stuck but to take a step towards the One who’s worth every, every pursuit, Lord God. So we love You, Jesus. I thank You so much for Viv and for where You’re using her God. And I just pray, God, for a blessing over this podcast and for all who are listening, Lord, that they would just be drawn to, um, know You and understand You more. God, in Jesus’ name, amen. 

[music] 

Vivian: Amen Adie. Well, friends, this episode concludes our season 15. Follow our social media to stay up to date with a special bonus episode coming out and the release of season 16. You don’t want to miss it. And be sure to check out our website for a survey where you can share insights with us. What do you think of the podcast? Who would you like to have a conversation with? Find that survey and more God Hears Her resources at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher.org. Thank you for joining us, and don’t forget, God hears you. He sees you, and He loves you because you are His.  

[music] 

Vivian: Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Jade Gustman and Mary Jo Clark. We also want to thank Emily and Josh for all their help and support. Thanks everyone. 

Elisa: God Hears Her is a production of our Daily Bread Ministries.