Space for Everyone

God Hears Her Podcast

Episode 75 – Space for Everyone

Elisa Morgan & Eryn Eddy with Vivian Mabuni

[Music]

Vivian: When you’re talking about being misunderstood or, you know, intentions are being questioned, people are mean, they don’t understand, they don’t like change. And that is really a hard place to be, but God calls some of us to be those kinds of leaders. There are other people that are there to help create and build up and will come at it a different direction.

[Music]

[Introduction]: You’re listening to God Hears Her, a podcast for women where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His. Find out how these realities free you today on God Hears Her.

Elisa:  Welcome to God Hears Her. I’m Elisa Morgan.

Eryn:  And I’m Eryn Eddy. When we look at our friend groups, do we see people that look and act just like us? Or is there a diverse group of people around us? Are we challenged by the conversations we have with them? Or are we always within our own comfort zones?

Elisa:  Today, we’re talking to Vivian Mabuni, who encourages us to learn from other cultures and situations that we may not have much experience with. Vivian believes in diverse communities where we can have open conversations with people who aren’t just like us even if it’s uncomfortable.

Eryn:  Vivian Mabuni is a national speaker, author, Bible teacher and podcast host. Her writing has appeared in Christianity Today. She reads Truth and Our Daily Bread. She has been on staff with Crew for over 30 years. She is also the author of Open Hands, Willing Heart, and the founder and host of Someday is Here, a podcast for AAPI leaders, which stands for Asian American and Pacific Islanders. She loves drinking coffee with her husband of 30 years, Darrin, and marveling at their three adult kids.

Elisa:  Join us in our conversation with Vivian Mabuni on this episode of God Hears Her.

Eryn:  The guest on this episode of God Hears Her… I am so excited, Elisa. We had her on episode 29.

Elisa:  Oh my gosh, that’s my age. No… no that’s your age, no.

[Laugher]

Elisa: Okay.

Eryn:  And it was when we first started recording. This would’ve been almost 2 years ago.

Elisa: [Sings] Remember when, remember when

Eryn: [sings] Remember when.

Elisa:  We’re talkin with Vivian Mabuni who you’re hearing her little voice here.

Eryn:  Yes! Vivian, welcome back to God Hears Her.

Vivian:  Thank you for having me. I so look forward to this conversation because I just love you both. I love your friendship individually and then together and what you model, so I feel so honored to be here. So, thanks for having me back.

Elisa:  Absolutely, you know, I think it’s our privilege, and it’s gonna be our whole community’s boon here. You know, Viv and I have known each other for a lot of years, but better in the last 5 years than in the years past. And so, I’m happy that you’re back, and… and we’re going to go into some interesting topics today because we committed, the three of us, to go into some spaces that can be wonky and a little sensitive and sometimes confusing, huh Eryn.

Eryn:  Yeah, that’s right. You know, I was thinking as we were just kinda preparing for today’s show, what I love about Vivian, first off, you’re like the most perfect person to learn from in this space, and I think one of the reasons why…and we’ll get into what we’re talking about in just a second, but one of the many reasons why I think you’re… you’re perfect for is because you give so much compassion and grace but you also give challenge that it’s like a tender challenge. And we all need to be challenged, and I just… I’m really grateful that I can bring my curiosities, my questions, my ignorance to you and you help me process but then you also challenge me too.

Elisa:  You know, to… to set some context, and I so agree with you, your comments Eryn about Viv’s beautiful personality, but to set the context, Viv, may… maybe just share with us who you are, you know. What’s your spot in line?

Eryn:  Where do you live? Remind us.

Vivian:  All the things, all the things. Well, my name is Vivian Mabuni. People listening to the podcast may not be able to tell, but I am an Asian American woman. I live in Southern California. I’ve been married 30 years to my husband, Darrin. We have three young adults, two sons and a daughter, and my middle son just got engaged at the end of July.

Elisa:  Congrats, wow.

Vivian: So, we’re entering into another season. I’m a cancer survivor. I’m 12 years in remission. So just realizing that recently, and grateful for every milestone, grateful for the gift of… of life and everyday. So, I carry that with me as well. I’m a speaker and an author and also a podcast host. Well… well get into some of that in our conversation, and I… I am passionate about representation matters. I so desire to platform and elevate other AAPI, Asian American Pacific Islander.

Elisa:  Woah.

Vivian:  Yes.

Elisa:  Acronym un… unpack that for us.

Vivian:  Yes, yes. Asian American Pacific Islander, AAPI women. And, you know, sadly I just don’t see a lot of representation in… especially in Christian publishing, Christian conferences, all of that. So… so that’s some of my burden and passion, and there’s just a lot more to me than just that but those are some of those little points. And I’ve been on staff with Crew for 32 years, worked with college students the majority of the time, and a recent time have focused mostly on speaking and writing. So, I love speaking… my husband and I just finished speaking at the Family Life Weekend to Remember conference, marriage conference. So, it’s fun to do something with him to and…

Elisa: Yeah.

Vivian:  Yeah, so that’s kind of a little bit of a nutshell of what’s going on in my little world.

Eryn:  Vivian when did you learn that you were going to be in the space of speaking and writing? Like, how long ago was that that you felt the call to step into that space?

Vivian:  You know, it’s been a gradual thing. I remember when I was married with young kids and my husband’s supervisor came, you know, to talk about what I thought was going to be both of us but it ended up just being my husband. And I just felt so overlooked in that moment, and I prayed and said, “Lord, I still feel like I have some things to contribute, but you’re going to have to make the way because I am drowning in carpool and all the things of, you know, raising littles.” And God just so faithfully opened up an opportunity for me to speak for a weekend event, you know, just a… a one… one-day weekend event, and then word started getting out. And so, I got invited to other things, and then other things, and then that was kind of the speaking part where I was doing, you know, more local things. And then, what I noticed was there was a credibility issue that speakers who are traditionally published authors have a credibility increase with the advent of a book. And the book writing thing to me was really challenging, and I didn’t know that. Actually, Elisa and I met initially at a conference, and I had attended breakout session on how to write a book. And I was like there’s just no way, there is no way. And Elisa’s wise words which I have now passed on to others where she goes “Just juggle the doorknobs. You just never know which doors will open.” And I just took that…

Eryn:  She’s so good at that.

Vivian:  Right, isn’t she so good at that. You’re right Eryn. Well, I think juggling too meant that it wasn’t just going to be me charging through the door, and it also wasn’t going to be me being passive and just thinking, oh well, it’s just never gonna to happen. Like you just don’t know until you juggle and see what doors the Lord opens. And so, in that time…

Elisa:  Just juggle your way into God’s work.

Vivian:  I’m just jigglin’, I’m just jiggling and shimmying. But… so, anyway, all that was to say was that as a cancer survivor I had started blogging about my cancer journey. And, you know, as God would have it, an author I had never met forwarded my blog to an editor from Our Daily Bread, and that’s how the first book came about, so it was completely backwards with what I had understood needed to be the process.

Eryn: Wow.

Elisa:  Yeah.

Vivian:  And so,…

Elisa:  The door flew open.

Vivian:  The door flew open, and so that actually lended to a lot more opportunities to speak more nationally. And that has just been my joy, so I… I consider myself a speaker who writes rather than a writer who speaks. And I have just really enjoyed this season of being able to share who I am and my story, but also to teach from God’s word and to normalize Asian Americans just doing that because sometimes, as you guys… we’ve had these conversations, sometimes women of color only invited into spaces to speak on racial justice, which I would love to see just the normalization of everyone doing everything.

Eryn:  Exactly.

Vivian:  And that’s the difference for me, like understanding that my lane is not necessarily racial reconciliation. I don’t… I’m not formally trained in a lot of those areas. I can speak into them to a degree, but I find my greatest joy opening up the scriptures and being able to teach from my… my lived experiences well. And… and even open the eyes of my sisters… sisters and brothers sometimes to some of the cultural things that are unique to me and how I interact with the scriptures, which I think we can all relate to. You know, those of us who’ve walked through a season of infertility read Hannah and Elizabeth in the Bible, very differently, and we learn from one another that way from our lived experience.

Eryn:  Yeah.

Vivian:  So, to feel marginalized, to feel overlooked, to feel not represented, there’s a whole layer of my connecting with some of the characters in the Bible from that vantage point.

Elisa:  You used a phrase as we were chatting that you really believed that representation matters, and that’s a… that’s a daunting phrase to me. And as I’ve heard you unpack that before, I hear even right now what you’re saying is that everybody is included, and everybody has an offering. And we may not because of our cultural preferences or where we’ve been emersed ourselves. We may not be aware that we are not inviting or listening to the everybody matters and the representation opportunities. Why do you think we have such blinders on, and why is it so important to you? I mean, do you have a story in your own life in terms of when this came to the forefront for you, and you thought, I’m gonna do something here. Like you said you’re not professionally trained in racial reconciliation or racial justice, but God has nudged you to be intentional about including AAPI voices in this place.

Vivian:  So that question has a lot of different layers to it. I think from my own experience, I’ve always… I think I’m wanting to create what I never had. So, as a young girl growing up in Colorado, you know, this was before Mulan… the movie Mulan, so there were no Disney princesses that looked like me. There were no dolls on the shelves, no barbies that looked like me. No one on TV looked like me, no one in the movies looked like me. I grew up in a predominately White space. So, what happens if you have a predominant culture, we start to think that that’s normative, like that’s what’s just is. It’s the water that we swim in, but it can be limiting in that we think that that’s normal and White becomes normal, rather than recognizing that we actually are made up of a lot more than just… and White actually is Sweetish American, German American…

Elisa:  Yes, European…

Vivian:  Polish American…

Elisa:  British…

Vivian:  Yeah, and if you’ve ever visited any of those countries the Italians are very different than the Germans who are different than the French who are different than…. And so, we have culture that we bring in. My German American friends have distinctly German characteristics that they’ve ki… have come up through their families, and in the same way, for Asian American it’s so broad, there are so many other countries. So, a Cambodian American is not the same as a Chinese American, is not the same as [among] American is not the same a South Asian. So, I think us being able to recognize and celebrate just who we are and what we bring and… and not just having this sense that this is just what’s right, and… and our way is right. So, obviously, for all of us in the United States, we just think that we drive on the right side of the road and that’s just the way you do it.

Elisa: [Laughs] Everybody else does it on the wrong side.

Vivian:  Right. And we really, literally call it the wrong side of the road.

Eryn:  We do.

Vivian:  So, there’s this si… this mentality… so I’m not immune to that either, you know what I mean. I just kind of think that this is the way it’s supposed to be, and I think it requires humility and it requires awareness to recognize that no not everyone is experiencing the same thing. So, in… when we talk about something like leadership, and leadership selection, my Asian American culture is collective. So, there’s a strong since of hierarchy, and so we do not promote ourselves. And we don’t talk over one another because that’s a way to honor one another, but in a corporate setting or a church leadership setting, it’s easy to overlook an Asian and say, oh, they’re not assertive.

Eryn:  Yeah, right.

Vivian:  Or they don’t really have an opinion, or they’re not expressive or aggressive, or the kinds of things we think of as a leader. But in other cultures, we’re absolutely acting with integrity to who we are, and the greater body of Christ or even company actually is enhanced with the contribution of people that come from different background. So, a lot of it is awareness, and I think a lot of it we just don’t think about. So, I… I remember, you know, talking to several different people along the way like, you know, growing up, there was never an Asian American woman who spoke at women of faith conference. And for my White friends, they just never thought about that until they sat done, and then they thought about that, you’re right I’ve never seen an Asian American on main stage. And I speak pretty regularly and it’s 2021, 2022 now, and I still have people come up with tears in their eyes, “You are the first woman who looks like me.” I invited my daughters to come because they have never seen an Asian American woman keynote a conference. So, it matters because you can’t be what you can’t see.

Eryn:  That’s right.

Vivian:  And now it just opens up so many more possibilities when those things happen.

Eryn:  That’s so beautiful. You know, Vivian, I love… well, I love everything that you just said, but one thing, you know, that you were saying in the beginning about how we’ve normalized it. Yeah, I grew up in a predominately White environment. I was grateful that I went to an all-girls school that was made up of all cultures and backgrounds. It was a boarding school, so a lot of students were from all over the world, Korea, Costa Rica, North Carolina, Washington State, Alaska, I mean… Hawaii, New Zealand, everywhere. And so, I did learn a lot, but even in that, as I entered into my early 20s, I was then reverted back into being around predominantly White environment, and it was normalized for me. And I noticed when I did start surrounding myself with friends that did have different backgrounds and cultures and upbringings, I realized, I don’t know how to have conversations with people that don’t look like me and people that may not have the same background as me. And it intimidated me. I had a just a, I guess, an awakening to that because what you’re staring, you know, is that we all can gift each other, so many different perspectives of how God has made and wired us. But I’m so grateful that you pointed out we have normalized it, we can normalize it, it can become more familiar to only be surrounded by people that look like us or come from the same background, but we’re missing out so much on what our brothers and sisters can gift us and what we can gift them.

Eryn:  So maybe that’s kind of a first step, Eryn. I mean just recognizing it because when we’re normalizing it, we don’t know…. Viv, is that a first step, is that legit, does that count?

Vivian:  Oh, everything counts. And I think that just even the curiosity and the willingness to enter in…, and, yes, it can be intimidating. But I think it’s understandable. It’s intimidating from an Asian American standpoint to go to a White household. It’s like, oh wait I’m supposed to keep my shoes on?

Elisa:  Right, oh.

Vivian:  But that’s just so not what we do in Asian culture. Like, we take our shoes off before we go into the house, you know, and so, I need to be able to switch it out as well. So, I think, when we come to these places where there is a opportunity, and really it is an opportunity… it’s a privilege to be able to enter each other’s lives and recognize that our lives are deeply enriched when we surround ourselves. And all of a sudden, the issues of the world hit differently because we have real relationships with real people, so my understanding, and I know all of you relate to this as well, I didn’t grow up with a lot of Black friends in Colorado. But as my friendship circles have grown in especially in the last 10 years, I don’t watch the news the same, and when there’s another tragedy, another senseless killing, it’s not just the news.

Eryn:  Yeah.

Vivian:  I’m understanding… recognizing and… and feeling very differently for the victims, the victim’s family’s because now I’m in relationship with people. So, there’s… there’s that level, and really it’s an entry level, but it’s… it’s possible to continue learning even without those relationships because some people literally are in the middle of, I only have White people in my life. And that… it’s not a fault it’s just a… the reality. We weren’t privileged to be around a lot of variety. So, there are opportunities to be learners. I learn a lot listening to the Truth’s Table podcast. It’s three Black women, for Black women, by Black women. They just have conversations regular, and as a non- Black woman, I’m learning about culture even just being a listener…

Eryn:  Yeah.

Vivian: …into the conversation…

Elisa:  In fact, we’ve had Dr. Edmonson Christina, on…

Eryn:  Yes!

Elisa:  our podcast. And … and…

Eryn:  Yes!

Elisa:  But, you know, you’re bringin up a second… a second step we can take, and that is, if we don’t have variety around us, we can do simple things like listening to podcasts. That one is one. But you have one that you’ve intentionally begun called Some Day is Here. I’d love for you to unpack why… A, why you called it that and then tell us a story or two that is really shaped you because I think as are… as are listeners, we can, all of us, we can listen to that and immerse ourselves in a world that’s different than our own.

Vivian:  Yeah. So, in the same spirit of Truth’s Table, I really wanted to have conversations that didn’t have to be necessarily mindful of an audience that wasn’t Asian American or Asian American Pacific Islander. So, I love it that it’s just as simple as that, and when we talk, we all were laughing about the same jokes. And the feedback that I received from my non- Asian friends is that that’s really helpful. It’s an easy entry point, and in the podcast, I have a “Did you Know?” section, which is Asian American history. So, people don’t know that there was Chinese Americans that fought in the civil war. The Chinese were excluded from immigrating until the 60’s, from 1880…, you know, so there’s just… there’s a lot of history that we don’t know. And so, there’s a history piece that’s not often in the history books that we study. There’s also just the natural conversations and the things that we’re similar in and even the differences with different ethnic backgrounds. So that’s really the… the heart of it. Some Day is Here really is capturing, again, what I wish I had growing up. And, you know, well, someday… well, someday, maybe… someday, and now someday is here. So, let’s move into this… this space and celebrate, and there are things that have brought us pain, but there are also things that we’re proud of. And so, I have loved being able to interview a wide range of women and their stories, and…. So, we have about three seasons, and we kinda took a break. And we’ll probably relaunch again in early 2022 because there are just so many incredible voices that people just don’t know about, and I would love nothing more than to see more leaders raised up- proudly taking their place in contributing to the betterment of our society and of the church.

[Musical interlude]

Eryn:  When we come back, Vivian Mabuni will share how each of us will be leaders of change. A process that may mean checking our own hearts for biases and anger. She’ll also share how important it is to listen to the people around us, even if we might disagree with them.

[Music]

Elisa:  Thanks for listening to this God Hears Her podcast. Eryn and I love sharing this space with you. And, you know what, we want to invite you to become an even bigger part of our God Hears Her community to sign up for our weekly email newsletter. We’ll keep you updated on new podcasts, encouraging blog posts, exciting new products, so much. Just go to godhearsher.org and sign-up today, that’s godhearsher.org. Now, back to the show.

Eryn:  Vivian, wha… what would you share with the woman that feels like she’s not represented, seen, known, heard, feels… feels voiceless? What would you share with her?

Vivian:  That is a really good question, I would say to her that that recognition of not feeling seen or heard or known is an indicator to maybe do something. Sometimes we need that internal and external push to kinda move into something a little bit more uncomfortable. So, to the woman listening, feeling like this is not representative of me… I think that first of all, to her I would say, do a heart check. You know, and make sure where it’s coming from is not out of spite and anger and… that’s not going to move us forward into the good, abundant land that I believe God has for all of us. So, make sure that that part is a little bit worked out and understand that people may not get it, and that can be very painful, to… to be vulnerable, to share something, so individually personal, and to have that not be received is a risk. But it also can be a risk that starts to shift things because if the leadership is like most leadership, it’s not intentional, it just was ne… it just never occurred to them. I experienced that with my friends who are single or divorced. There’s a whole miss when every woman’s ministry and activity only talks about married women with children, and that’s just cutting out a whole bunch of people. So, even the wherewithal to know is helpful for any kind of leadership team, so assuming the best and then being able to humbly articulate what’s happening and I think it’s important to understand… I’ll probably just flip it now, and just address those who are in leadership, that by just putting some faces of color on a poster or on a website or in the worship band does not equate to real change. Real change is gonna happen when you have representation in the leadership level that determines allocation of funding, of different responsibilities and roles, and speaking into… it’s just Hamilton, “To be in the room where it happens.” That’s where you’re really gonna see the change. It’s not gonna happen through a front, you know, cosmetic, [benetint] add. It really needs to be worked through on a leadership level, on where power and authority really lie.

Eryn:  That’s good.

Elisa:  I love the high road that you’re taking both for the woman who feels underrepresented and for those who have the authority and the power, if you will, to invite more representation. Both of those are righteous stances that I think please God’s heart. Can we expect favor from such choices to include intentionally the way you’re talking about, or might we encounter disfavor, criticism, rejection, and what’s been your experience there, even though your intentions are great?

Vivian:  It does vary… it does vary because as we all know when it comes to just even resolving conflict, it really is dependent on the posture of people’s hearts. So, I would say, you know, it really begins in my own heart and recognizing where my own flesh and even my own entitlement can get in the way. So, when… and I would say this is true, just leadership in general, it’s costly, it’s messy to change things. The way that I describe it to some people that helps them understand is like I have two sons and a daughter. And so, when I was pregnant with Julia, found out she was a girl, and in my mind, it’s like I know how to do boys. I’ve done all the toys, all the everything, you know, I know how to shop for and feed the boys. Having a girl is a whole other thing, you know, and it’s… requires a whole other wardrobe and everything, and toys and all that stuff. Well, the truth of it is that it was different, it cost more, it took more learning, it wasn’t the same thing anymore. But, gosh, I cannot imagine life without Julie, and life is so much better with Julia. And I think that it’s worth the cost, and it’s worth the messiness, and it’s worth changing, and expanding, and growing because it just tastes better.

Eryn:  Yeah.

Vivian:  Life is better, but it… it requires so much more work. It’s just a lot easier for everyone to stay homogenous. You know, that’ s just the easy road. And, you know, no one has to be sensitive to the things that are happening, or whatever. It’s just like everyone’s the same, and the… the truth is our world is increasingly complex, and it’s bigger and smaller at the same time. And our country, demographically, is changing, and we as a church, rather than reacting, can be proactive. There’s great hope that we can see change that would be reflective of the people around us. So, that’s why it matters. It’s important and lives are at stake. And I think when we keep only to ourselves, we start to dehumanize others and we “other” people. That is a dangerous place to be when we start othering people and judge without knowing. So…

Elisa:  Yeah.

Vivian:  You know, life really needs to expand, and I think that that’s where we’re all called to that. And it requires humility and a recognition that it’s messy. For me personally, there have been times where I have stepped in and it’s afforded more opportunities, you know, that I didn’t expect. But I… I think that some of it for me as an Asian American woman is that it… it’s good, but it could be better. And sometimes my frustration for the lack of movement, it’s actually moving me to building my own tables as well because it’s so draining to try to find a seat at those existing tables that it’s like, you know what, I’m just going to build my own. And all y’all can see what we’re doing over here, and maybe that will be another way. So, there’s… just everyone works differently. And there are the leaders that take the greatest heat are the tip of the arrow, and I think that that’s where, Elisa, when you’re talking about, you know, being misunderstood, or, you know, intentions are being questioned, people are mean, they don’t understand, they don’t like change, and that is really a hard place to be. But God calls some of us to be those kinds of leaders. There are other people that there to help create and build up and will come at it a different direction. So, I… I want to be about sharing on all of them. You know, like, yes, if you’re gonna create something different, go with our blessing. And if you want to try to, you know, stay in this challenging space, then stay there too. For me, I still am committed to White spaces because I know that when I have my White sisters who get what I’m talking about, all of a sudden, the rise in Asian hate crimes rise lands differently because I know that in these different states, these sisters are going to stand up for me on my behalf, on behalf of Asian Americans, and stop the harm that’s happening, and help the grandma cause that could’ve been my grandma. You know, so absolutely I want to be there because if I … if my voice is not there, then there’s a lost opportunity to be learning, and so, even in our conversation… I’m so grateful for it because to me, it communicates like, yes, if we can have conversations and be learners and be intentional, and just even be directed. Like, who are the trusted voices to listen to, and I think that’s some of it to that we have so many different messages bombarding us it’s hard to know who to believe and who to trust. And so, that… all of that matters.

Eryn:  That’s so beautiful Vivian. To the woman that does feel voiceless, and she checks her heart, and if there’s anger… you know, you’ve talked about having this posture of humility. And I think sometimes before we can get to the posture of humility, we have to deal with all of the emotions that we’re feeling like, the anger, and the frustration, and the sadness, the lamenting. The woman that’s in that space, that anger space, what would you share with her for her to get cross the bridge to having compassion, and grace, and being able to step into humility?

Vivian:  We do need to work through those feelings. I think some of that is going to come through being in safe spaces to process the feelings. You can’t deal until you feel. It’s very hard to engage with people you don’t know, and so, it really does require the extra step of believing the best and seeking to not just cancel out. It think this up in coming generation we have this cancel culture thing going, where it’s like, you disagree with me than you’re wrong and bad.

Elisa:  You can’t be in my life anymore.

Vivian:  Right! And so, I’m just going to X you out. And I think that operating out of a scarcity mentality, to the woman who is feeling all of those angry feelings, we do need to process that out, we do… because it will come out sideways if it’s not dealt with. So, there is a place for being able to be in homogenous environments where we can work some of these things out, and sometimes my White friends don’t understand, like why are you have a conference for just Asian American Pacific Islander women, like, you know, why not just have it be for everybody? Well, there… there needs to be some spaces that are safe to be able to just relax and, you know, let down are hair. And I think we experience that somewhat in our different places where we feel camaraderie. You know, like, I think that different regions of the country, you know, we kind of feel that, like when we are with all the people that love the same baseball team, and they love… you know, there’ just this… it’s a…

Elisa:  We’re good.

Vivian:  Yeah, we’re good. And I think that that’s the importance of having a space for AAPI women and the hope to be able to name the challenges and help each other to cheer each other on to move through what’s uncomfortable in our work lives and in our church lives and ministry and so forth. So, those are important as well, but I would just say to the angry ones, the anger often is understandable, but it doesn’t have to be the end of the story. And I think that that’s where I would just want to call women to move toward, ultimately. That that still is the final place that honors the Lord the most, and Jesus prayed that they would know we are Christians by our love. That this unity that He calls us. Unity is not uniformity; it really is being able to be different but together, and that’s what I want to work towards.

[Music]

Eryn:  Wow, I loved this conversation with Vivian, didn’t you Elisa?

Elisa:  Yes. I mean, every time I’m with Vivian, she has so many wise things to say, and we can all learn so much from her. We all have a story, and we all should have a safe space to share it. I couldn’t agree more. Well, before we close out today’s episode of God Hears Her, we want to remind you that the show notes are available in the podcast description. And today’s show notes we are also including a link for more about Vivian Mabuni and her podcast, Some Day is Here. You can also find links to connect with Elisa and me on social. Visit our website at godhearsher.org, that’s godhearsher.org.

Elisa:  Thanks for joining us, and don’t forget God Hears you, he sees you, and He loves you because you are His.

[Music]

Eryn:  Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Mary Jo Clark, Daniel Ryan Day, and Jade Gustafson. Today we wanna also recognize and thank John and Melissa. Thank you for all your hard work.

Elisa:  God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.