Taking Care of Your Future Self

God Hears Her Podcast

Episode 85 – Taking Care of Your Future Self

Elisa Morgan & Eryn Eddy with Kathi Lipp

Kathi: You know, when we talk about the clutter and anything that is supplementing where God should be meeting our needs and we’re meeting them in other ways, I really believe it comes down to three things: fear, guilt, and shame. And when it came to stuff, fear, what if I need it someday? Guilt, so and so gave this to me. I have to hold onto it for the rest of my life. Shame, I spent so much money on it. I invested so much in it, I have to hold onto it. And these are not good things that are keeping us bound.

Voice: You’re listening to God Hears Her, a podcast for women where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His. Find out how these realities free you today on God Hears Her.

Eryn: Welcome to God Hears Her. I’m Eryn Eddy.

Elisa: And I’m Elisa Morgan. I’m curious, how do you organize the space around you? Why do you set it up the way you do? Are you the type that has a place for everything? Or are you someone who thrives in chaos?

Eryn: Today, Elisa and I are talking to our friend, Kathi Lipp, about the importance of a clutter-free space for our personal and spiritual growth. Kathi is the author of 20 books including An Abundant Place: Daily Retreats for the Woman Who Can’t Get Away. Kathi lives on her mini-homestead with her husband, Roger, a dog, cat, and five chickens. She is the host of The Clutter-Free Academy podcast and a national speaker often featured on Women’s World.

Elisa: We’re so excited to talk with Kathi Lipp on this episode of God Hears Her. Eryn, this next guest needs no introduction. However, I want to give her kind of like a shout-out, cheer, hullabaloo, cause I love my Kathi Lipp.

Eryn: Yay.

Elisa: Yeah, Kathi and I go back to some MOPS days together. But Eryn, you and I have met Kathi together, cause we did her podcast, didn’t we?

Eryn: That’s right. And we had so much fun on it. I remember thinking, can we somehow figure out how to get her as maybe like a tri-host with us?

Elisa: So hey, welcome, Kathi.

Kathi: Oh my goodness, you guys. I am so excited to be here. And I actually remember the first time I met you, Elisa.

Elisa: Uh oh.

Kathi: We were with our mutual friend, Michelle.

Elisa: Oh yeah.

Kathi: And you said…you said, I only know two things about you. I can’t remember the first one was. But the…the second one was, and you adore your husband.

Elisa: Yes.

Kathi: I’m like if…if that’s all you know…

Elisa: Oh.

Kathi: …my work here is done. And so yes, and can I just say, the podcast we did together was so much fun. And women still comment on it.

Elisa: Awesome.

Eryn: Oh.

Elisa: Well…well give a shout out. What is your podcast, and what was our episode?

Kathi: Oh.

Elisa: Do you remember?

Kathi: Okay, so the podcast is Clutter-Free Academy. And we talk about de-cluttering, cause my dad was a hoarder. I was on my way to being one.

Elisa: I…I remember we talked about clutter from different perspectives. Mine was…

Kathi: Yes.

Elisa: …one of trying to let go of generations of junk…

Kathi: Yes.

Elisa: …because I’m empty-nesting. And Eryn’s was about trying to acquire some things, because she’s building.

Kathi: Right.

Elisa: So it was kind of a fun conversation. But we digress. Today we want to lean into you, Kathi. And you have a very interesting life journey. You know maybe just…you’re a quick thinker-talker. Bring us up to this point and then why in the world your husband, Roger, whom you love so much, have decided to move of the mountains. But give us a little background on Kathi.

Kathi: Yeah, so like I said. You know clutter was a big part of my life. We started to figure out it was more of an emotional and spiritual issue than it really was a stuff issue. And so as we started to uncover that, started to bring some women together to talk about those things. And so I’ve been writing books and doing things. A few years ago, my husband and I rented an Airbnb, and we just thought, this is so great. We were in the mountains. We loved it. And we started to think, wait. Is there any way…cause we’re not like the two-home kind of people. You know there are two-home kind of people. But that’s not how we roll.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: But we thought, Wait. Can we get a second home and rent it out as an Airbnb? And then we could actually stay in it sometimes? And then we started to think, Wait a second. I’ve been teaching at writing conferences and things like that. Maybe…maybe we could teach writing conferences there. So we started to dream and plan and get all excited and everything. So we did it. We bought a house in Northern California very close to Lake Tahoe. And then we were crazy, you guys. We would stay in one house for three months and Airbnb the other house, and back and forth and back and forth.

Eryn: Oh, that’s so fun.

Kathi: It was so fun until the…

Eryn: Until it wasn’t.

Kathi: …until…until the townhouse board of directors said, oh we’re scared of Airbnb guests.

Eryn: Wow.

Kathi: And so they thought…they thought we would just sell our hours in the mountains and, you know, be done with it. What we ended up…the crazy thing we ended up doing was selling our house in town, and we moved to this really remote location.

Elisa: Wow.

Kathi: And we live there now. And we sold our house the week before all the shutdowns happened.

Elisa: Wow.

Kathi: Which we’re really grateful for.

Elisa: Yeah.

Kathi: And we’ve been living in the mountains ever since. And I can’t even tell you. If you told me I had to like, you know, garden for an extended period of time before we moved, that was a stretch for me. And now I have become like this…this mountain girl who…

Elisa: Do you like have a compost pile?

Kathi: We have a compost pile. But you know what’s even better than the compost pile?

Elisa: What?

Kathi: Chickens.

Elisa: Oh my word.

Kathi: Because…because they will eat anything, and they produce the best fertilizer.

Elisa: Oh my goodness.

Kathi: Things I did not know three years ago.

Elisa: Who would have?

Kathi: You guys, I call myself the accidental homesteader. Because this was…I thought we were just buying this cute mountain place. And then you know I had no idea all that went into all of this.

Elisa: Wow.

Kathi: And we are learning…we’re learning on a very steep curve. But it’s…to take on an adventure when, I mean some people actually retire at 55. I don’t even understand it. But I know some people do. That’s when we’re starting our adventure. And it’s just…

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: …we love it so much. It challenges us a lot. We just had a hundred-year storm where we had…

Eryn: Oh wow.

Kathi: …three feet of snow.

Elisa: Yes, you did.

Kathi: I…I’ve never lived in unmanaged snow before in my life. That’s a whole thing.

Eryn: What state do you live in?

Kathi: We’re in California.

Eryn: Okay.

Kathi: So the Caldor fire that was this summer that was one of the biggest in California history started a mile and a half from our house.

Eryn: Wow.

Elisa: I remember praying for you, Kathi, as I watched your Facebook posts, and I watched the fire grow closer and closer.

Eryn: Oh gosh.

Elisa: And that was a terrifying time as it is for so many. I mean those in Colorado with the Marshall fire, we could kind of go on and on, the…the tornadoes, the you know, just on and on. A lot of people have been displaced and man, it…it…it’s very humbling, isn’t it?

Kathi: It’s very humbling to try to understand, which I never will, why half our town lost their homes and we didn’t.

Elisa: Yeah.

Kathi: And we finally just came to the conclusion we just have to say thank you God. How can we help? You know like that’s the only…

Elisa: Beautiful.

Kathi: …response. Thank you, God. How can we help?

Elisa: That’s good.

Kathi: Because there’s literally the fire started a mile from our house and then went the other direction. And we don’t understand why. Fire…fire makes no sense.

Elisa: It doesn’t.

Kathi: It makes no sense. But we’re so grateful and we’re in a position we can help, so that’s what we’re going to do. But that’s such a great word, Elisa. It’s humbling…fire [inaudible].

Elisa: Is…is it okay if I ask you just may…just be a little snippet for us. But what ways has God shown you and Roger to help? You know because all…all of us think, what can I do? You know and I…

Kathi: Yeah.

Elisa: …I’m not Bill Gates or whatever with a billion dollars. What can I do?

Kathi: It’s so interesting. You know I think about the verse, you see the person who’s hungry. You see the person who doesn’t have clothes, and you say go off. Be well fed, you know. Like y…but faith without works is nothing. And so we are doing some really practical things. We’re part of some fundraisers. We are part of the Omo Ranch Fire Safety Council. If you had told me that that was going to be one of the things I would do when I’d get to the mountains, I would not have believed you. But really practically helping people in our areas. There are people who can’t clear the brush off of their property. Now I’m not out clearing brush, let’s be clear. But I’m doing bake sales. We’re doing fundraisers to help people. You know some of our neighbors are volunteer firefighters, and some of them got covid. Some of them got sick. So we are taking meals. There’s one firefighter on our mountain that I take a meal to every single week.

Eryn: Oh.

Kathi: Because I know what my gifting is, and I know what his gifting is. And we have no DNA in common when it comes to our giftings. But I know…

Eryn: That’s so good.

Kathi: …I can…I can bring him a homecooked meal. And so like today, when we go back up on the mountain, I’m taking a meal to a friend who has been part of this huge storm and broke her ankle.

Elisa: Oh, gee.

Kathi: So I’m taking her a meal, and then I’m taking a couple of people on the m…you…you just have to know what your gifts are. And it…it feels…I…I think it’s such an excellent word, humble. Like I have so little I can give. But a couple of ways that I can do things is financially, we can help out. You know we’re still working. A lot of people are retired or low-income, so we can do that. We can cook for people. Roger can help with technology for people. You know we’re just learning how to live on the mountain, but we have skills that other people don’t. And so how can we help those? Like Roger is the webmaster of our little community. And so we…

Eryn: I love that.

Kathi: …we…we take what we have.

Eryn: And when you live in an area where even technology is really like Internet is hard to connect and cable…

Elisa: Which you get, Eryn, yeah.

Eryn: …and getting news and…

Kathi: Yes.

Eryn: I’m from a tiny, tiny town. And so when we got Dish…Dish TV, it was like what?

Kathi: It was a big deal, huh?

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: Yeah.

Eryn: And it’s not a huge satellite thing on the property.

Kathi: What?

Eryn: You know like…

Kathi: Right?

Eryn: …that blows in the wind. And then we don’t have TV anymore. Don’t know what’s going on in the news and yeah.

Kathi: Right, we were…we felt very, very modern when we finally got a…

Eryn: I bet.

Kathi: …a satellite that we didn’t have to go scrape snow off of.

Eryn: Yes, exactly.

Elisa: Oh.

Kathi: Yeah, so you know it’s very exciting.

Eryn: I know that.

[interlude]

Eryn: When we come back, Kathi will share how depending on God can lead to a clutter-free life and making space for our daily needs.

Elisa: God Loves Her is the newest book in our God Hears Her series. You know, we all just want to be reminded that we are loved. And in this devotional, women writers share personal stories about God’s love that is unconditional. Not only can you receive love from Him, but you’ll want to share it with others. God Loves Her is perfect to take on the go or to curl up with in your favorite spot at home. Get one for yourself and another to share with a friend who could use a special reminder of God’s love. Go to godlovesher.org to order. That’s godlovesher.org. Let’s rejoin Kathi Lipp to hear about how daily dependence on God sets us up for success in our future. That’s up next on this episode of God Hears Her. What I hear through all of what we’ve even begun to talk about is this connection to God and this trust that you and Roger have cultivated in what He’s inviting you to do. I mean there’s a lot of trust just to…to have two homes and VRBO one. There’s a lot of trust to move to the mountains. There’s a lot of trust to deal with snow and fire and chickens. There’s a lot of trust here. I think I remember that Roger got super sick during covid. And here you are out in the middle of nowhere. How was your trust muscle, you know, that God’s been inviting you? It’s not like you’ve never used before. You’ve had a lot of stuff in your life up till now. But how did that trust muscle get even more, what’s the word, built or honed?

Kathi: Yeah, at the very beginning of 2021, we ended up taking Roger to the hospital basically in the middle of a snowstorm, because he was just in so much pain. And we didn’t know what was going on. And of course with covid protocols, I couldn’t see him. It’s the longest we’ve been apart in our entire marriage. He was in the hospital for nine days. And in the midst of that, his mom ended up passing from covid.

Elisa: Wow, from covid.

Kathi: While he was in the hospital. And so that was just the, you know, the first week of the year. And our year kind of went like that, you know, with everything that was going on. I will say this. One of the things I have to repeat to myself over and over and over again is there is more safety in the middle of God’s plan than anywhere else I could possibly be in my life. And so knowing that God had called us to the mountains, knowing that, you know, this is where we are supposed to be and who we are supposed to be ministering to, I would say that we have spent more time praying over the past three years. It’s interesting, because we had a pretty comfortable life living in Silicon Valley. You know we had the insurance, and we had the safety net and a hospital five minutes away and a supermarket that we could walk to if we needed.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: And I don’t pretend that what we’re doing is dangerous. But it’s definitely outside of our skill set. And we’re having to learn, and we’re having to trust. And we’re having to rely on other people more than we’ve ever had to in our entire lives. And can I tell you, that’s the scariest part for me.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: I always considered myself a pretty much, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Elisa: Yeah.

Kathi: And I have had to relearn what community is in a brand new way. And I think that is where God is showing me not just His trust…trustworthiness but His love.

Eryn: Through the people, through the community that you’re experiencing now? Or…

Kathi: It…yes.

Eryn: Or through…

Kathi: Yes.

Eryn: Okay.

Kathi: I’ve always been needed. I don’t know what I’ve ever been like, you know, people want to have me in their group just because of who I am. I’ve always made sure I’ve been needed by other people. And I can do this skill. I can do these things. But to just be a part of a community where people show up just because you’re there and they want to make sure you’re okay.

Eryn: Yeah [inaudible].

Kathi: You know, to…to see our neighbor come down our incredibly crazy driveway with his Bobcat just to make sure that we’re okay and make sure we [inaudible].

Elisa: You’re talking about a machine, not an animal, okay.

Kathi: Right, this is true, a very wonderful machine that can move trees out of your driveway and plow snow and things like that. But I’ve never had a community like this before.

Eryn: Wow.

Kathi: And we don’t get to be a part of each other’s lives. We need to be a part of each other’s lives.

Elisa: All of you. You know I’m hearing you say, cause I’m listening really carefully for your principle, cause I need to learn. You know trusting God has come from the assurance that you responded to His invitations, you know…

Kathi: Yes.

Elisa: …His invitation to move to this mountain home. And so if that was true, then there’s no safer place to be.

Kathi: Exactly.

Elisa: And then I…I’m going to use the chick illustration. It’s like you hunker down over your nest there.

Kathi: Right.

Elisa: And receive what God has in it, because you have the assurance that He invited you into it.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: Absolutely. And we are constantly listening for, does that need to change? Is there…is there something? You know and we have no indication of that right now. And so sometimes we’re in the middle of these things. And let me just tell you, I say God, are You sure You want us here? Are You sure?

Eryn: Right. Were we supposed to be here? Yeah.

Kathi: Right, and it’s just that assurance that we are…ministry is happening where we are at. And I know ministry can happen anywhere, but this is something different. This is something outside of ourselves. This is something where our lives require trusting in God every single day. And I don’t want to go back to a life where that’s not my constant, where it’s not you know…where I can take care of myself.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: Because where is the growth in that?

Elisa: There’s a true dependency, yeah.

Kathi: Yes, and so that’s why it’s so important for us to try things outside of ourselves.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: You know if we wait until we’re ready, it’ll never happen.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: If you are ever in a place where you are doubting God, God’s existence, God’s goodness, God’s anything…yes, we have God’s Word. And I’m so grateful for God’s Word.

Eryn: You know, Kathi, what’s so cool about just seeing how God has just continually worked in your story, is that there is this thread this connection of home, safety…

Elisa: Yeah.

Eryn: Earlier you talked about…we were talking about hoarding, and you said it was connected to spiritual and emotional more than…

Kathi: Yeah.

Eryn: …like the desire to actually have these things.

Kathi: Right.

Eryn: It was more spiritual and emotional. And now, you have a space and a home that provides emotional and spiritual restoration. I’m so curious, like you know coming from your own restoration to now. I mean what would you tell somebody that is recognizing that they need, they are desperate for a rebuild, a restoration, a renewal…

Kathi: Yeah.

Eryn: …emotional, spiritual.

Kathi: I…such a great question. You know when we talk about the clutter. And anything that is supplementing where God should be meeting our needs and we’re meeting them in other ways, I really believe it comes down to three things: fear, guilt, and shame. And when it came to stuff, fear…what if I need it someday? Guilt, so and so gave this to me. I have to hold onto it for the rest of my life. Shame, I spent so much money on it. I invested so much in it, I have to hold onto it. And these are not good things that are keeping us bound. And you know I’ve dealt with addiction in other areas of my life. I still struggle in some areas. And whenever I’m like, why am I behaving this way? Why am I acting? Fear, guilt, and shame. It comes up over and over…

[crosstalk]

Elisa: That is so helpful, yeah.

Kathi: …and over again. And when I start to recognize it, I can start to deal with it. And I can start to turn it over to God instead of holding onto it and saying, I’m a horrible person. I…I should be able to deal with this. I should have the self-control. I should have…I should…I should…I should. Instead, I can say, you know what? These are real issues I’m dealing with, and I don’t have to deal with them alone. I can ask God for help. I can ask friends for help. I can ask my husband for help. Healing is possible. And healing doesn’t look the same for everybody. But recognizing that I’m doing these destructive behaviors because of that fear, guilt, and shame gives me a new perspective and says, you know, God didn’t bring me this far to abandon me and say, you know what? I’ve done enough for you, Kathi.

Elisa: Figure it out, yeah.

Kathi: I’ve done enough for…figure it out. I am going to be dependent for the rest of my life, and I need to be okay.

Eryn: That’s so good.

Elisa: That looks maybe like what am I afraid of? Am I feeling guilty?

Kathi: Yeah.

Elisa: And what’s that about?

Kathi: And why do I feel shame for things that should not produce shame?

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: You know, why do I believe that everybody else has been given the manual to how to live except for me?

Elisa: That’s good, yeah.

Eryn: Right.

Elisa: Yeah, yeah.

Kathi: And so that’s what I need to wrestle with God with. And God is so faithful with my temper tantrums, my questioning, my doubts, my fear, my guilt, my shame. He never tires of me. And I can bring that to Him over and over and over again. And I can wrestle and know that He does not grow weary of me.

Elisa: You know here you are living in a space where you provide space for others to have space.

Kathi: Yes.

Elisa: How do you ensure your own space, you know, kind of on a daily business?

Kathi: We have gotten dead serious about Sabbath.

Elisa: Sabbath.

Kathi: Sabbath. I used to think that that was a constraint that was put on me, because I’m not allowed to have fun on Sundays, you know. Like that was kind of my view of it for so many years.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: And what I have come to understand is Sabbath is this incredible gift that I’ve had to change many parts of my life around for it. So things that I’ve changed is I cook on Saturdays, so I don’t have to worry about it on Sunday. That rest is such a beautiful gift that I was cheating myself out of, because I was trying to do too much. And I was actually getting less done, because I wasn’t smart. I wasn’t thinking straight. I wasn’t restored. And so when I understood I was cheating myself out of this gift and out of the productivity that I thought I was getting ahead in things. And it’s…it’s taken me a while to miss that productivity on Sunday but to really recognize, when you have six days to get things done, you get things done in six days. When you have seven days to get things done, you get things done in seven days. It’s a mental shift, but it’s a heart shift too to receive that day of rest as a gift. And it’s not just laying around. It’s this is my time set aside for God. This is my time set aside for people I love. This is my time to say, you know, I have to say no to a lot of things in my life that are good so that I can do the things that are from God.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: You know. Choosing good or God, I’m going to choose God every single time. But it’s very easy to slip into a lot of good, because I’m a doer. I’m a people pleaser. I’m a box checker. But when I realize I only have six days, I have to say yes to the things that God has set out for me and be very careful with anything else.

Eryn: I heard procrastination in…in some of what you were sharing, right? Like how do you get out of that mindset of I am a fellow recovering procrastinator…

Kathi: Yeah.

Eryn: …holding my hand up and saying, it is true. And it’s something that I’ve been trying to break of myself is putting things off.

Kathi: Okay, I think I can answer this. I really do.

Eryn: Oh good. Okay.

Elisa: And everyone else who’s listening. Yeah, here we go.

Kathi: I have had to be merciful with myself and say, Kathi, how do you take care of your future self? So that from procrastination to planning. So I talk about planning and prepping. Because when you live in the mountains, you have to be prepared for any circumstance.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: Like it…it’s just…it’s what it is. And here’s the thing. You don’t know if tomorrow you’re going to have the time to do the thing that’s necessary. So it’s so much about okay, what needs to be done? And then, what can I do for tomorrow, Kathi? For Sunday, Kathi, today? So things like I literally put on my list, take a bath with a bath bomb.

Eryn: I love that.

Kathi: I…I schedule it on my list. And I schedule the important things on my list, but I also schedule like if I’m going to be doing a podcast or I’m…I want to have time to read a book. I know that what I need to do is I need to have the dishes done beforehand, because that’s relaxing to me.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: I need to have the chicken coop cleaned out. And so one of the things I’m trying to do is find more delight in the ordinary. So when I go clean out the chicken coop, which by the way is not a delightful job, there’s a reason you don’t see a picture of a cute chicken coop. Cause the only day a chicken coop looks cute is the day you build it. But to say okay, how can I reframe this? And so like when I am scooping out the chicken coop, I tell the girls it’s their spa day. Like I’m going out there, and I’m cleaning them up. But I also, I put on great music. I put on worship music. And I…I look forward to doing that because I’m making it into something I will…that has a cross purpose. And so procrastination, if you can reframe it as taking care of your future self. And like what can I do today to take care of tomorrow, Eryn? You know tomorrow Eryn would love to cook a fabulous meal. So maybe today Eryn takes out some of those things in the freezer to prep and plan for it instead of always trying to catch up.

Eryn: Yes.

Kathi: You know and so…

Eryn: Cause that’s so…that’s…

Kathi: Right?

Eryn: …so relevant.

Kathi: And can I tell you, I don’t schedule appointments on Mondays. Now this is a luxury I have, because I am [quote unquote] “my own boss.” But I try to do as much work as I possibly can on Monday, much of the busy work, so that I can do the people work that I love the rest of the week. I can have time when my daughter calls up and says, mom, I need to see you.

Eryn: That’s good.

Kathi: Like how am I going to say no to my daughter?

Elisa: Right.

Kathi: I don’t want to say no to my daughter. I en…I love her. I enjoy her. But I don’t want to be the person who’s trying to decide between the godly and the good.

Eryn: Yeah.

Kathi: And so get that stuff done first.

Eryn: That’s so good.

Elisa: You know, Kathi, your wisdom just pours out of you. You have a deep knowledge of who you are. You’ve done a lot of work to listen to who you are and to learn to study Kathi. And you also have a deep relationship with our God. You’ve studied Jesus, and you’ve studied His provision for you in nature and in relationships and in His Word. Can you speak a word of encouragement to someone who’s listening right now and is going, sheesh, I just…oh. If I could…

Kathi: Yeah.

Elisa: …just grab one of those things.

Kathi: Yeah.

Elisa: Ah, but it feels so overwhelming to me. If you could just speak a word to her.

Kathi: Okay, so first of all I just have to say that is probably one of the biggest most meaningful compliments I’ve ever received. Because I have to say, I lived a very disjointed life for much of my life. I would say to that person that if there is anything in you that thinks that God made a mistake with the traits that He has given you, the weird set of skills He’s given you, the seemingly useless knowledge He’s given you, you are no accident, my friend. We are designed to respond to God’s awesomeness. And we are designed to serve others around us. And you have everything you need within you to do both of those things. I spent much of my life. I…this is a podcast. You can’t see me. I’ve struggled with my weight all of my life. I mean I was a 10-pound baby. I started off struggling with my weight. And what I’ve come to learn through that struggle, well it’s still a struggle for me and there are days I have victory and I’m going in a healthy path. But here’s one of the things I’ve learned, that my weight is a shortcut for other people to trust me.

Elisa: Whoa.

Kathi: It is a shortcut for other people to say I think you would understand. So the thing that you despise most about yourself, God can use that to minister to others in a way that that seemingly perfect person has no entry into. And when we start to understand that we are not a mistake, we are able to more deeply love and serve in ways that we could have never imagined before. And there is a gift in your vulnerability. There is a gift in the pain that you have gone through. And God will use that for His glory and for your goodness.

[music]

Eryn: Kathi is so amazing. We are all made by God the way we are for a reason. Her encouragement really touched my heart and was exactly what I know I needed to hear.

Elisa: Me too, Eryn. She’s the best. We all need that reminder that God doesn’t make mistakes, especially when He created us.

Eryn: Well, before we end today’s episode of God Hears Her, we want to remind you that the show notes are available in the podcast description. And there’s a link to check out Kathi’s books and her podcast on her website. There are also links to connect with Elisa and me on social. You can find these links when you visit our website at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher.org.

Elisa: Thanks for joining us. And don’t forget. God hears you. He sees you, and He loves you; because you are His.

Eryn: Today’s episode was engineered by Gabrielle Boward and produced by Mary Jo Clark, Daniel Ryan Day, Jade Gustafson, and Ryan Clevenger. We also want to thank Peggy and Jody for all of their help and support. We appreciate you all.

Elisa: God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.