Truth in Leadership

God Hears Her Podcast

Episode 103 – Truth in Leadership

Elisa Morgan & Eryn Eddy with Natasha Sistrunk Robinson

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Natasha: I will speak to you about my fundamental mission for leadership, because I do think sometimes we’re in cultural spaces and we’re talking about being peacemakers because that makes us feel good. And we are calling for peace, as the prophet says, peace, peace when there is no peace. Because there are some things we need to get right first before we can have true shalom. Right? If we are a un-confessing, unrepentant people, there will be no peace in the land. And so, I think we need to be honest about that.

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Voice: You’re listening to God Hears Her, a podcast for women where we explore the stunning truth that God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His. Find out how these realities free you today on God Hears Her.

Elisa: Welcome to God Hears Her. I’m Elisa Morgan.

Eryn: And I’m Eryn Eddy. What do you think about leadership? Do you believe in truth and honesty? Do you think leaders should lead with truth? Today’s guest has worked in many leadership roles where she continued to develop a deep appreciation for truth telling in many forms, especially in leadership settings.

Elisa: Natasha Sistrunk Robinson is the president of T3 Leadership Solutions, the author of A Sojourners Truth, as well as other books, and a host of her own podcast. Natasha’s also a doctorate student at North Park Theological Seminary, and a graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and of the US Naval Academy. Wow. Natasha has served her country as a Marine Corps officer and federal government employee at the Department of Homeland Security.

Eryn: We are so excited to hear from Natasha on how leading with truth can impact everyone’s journey. Join us for this conversation with Natasha Sistrunk Robinson on God Hears Her.

Elisa: Eryn, our guest in this program is a woman that I’ve connected with in, gosh it’s been at least five, six, seven, eight years or so, it’s been a while. Y’all meet each other right here. Hey, Natasha.

Eryn: Hello Natasha!

Natasha: Hello, Elisa and Eryn. Nice to meet you, Eryn, for the first time.

Eryn: It’s so nice to meet you.

Elisa: I’m going to dive right into this because I probably asked you this the first time, but I’m always so curious when women use three names. You’re one of them, your name is Natasha Robinson, but it’s Natasha Sistrunk Robinson. And… and can you just fill in the blank, why’d you be intentional about that?

Natasha: Yeah, so, my middle name is [Lasalle], I’m actually named after my mother in that way, but Sistrunk is my maiden name, and I think naming people and naming ourselves is extremely important, especially as a black woman. I think that’s important. And because my maiden name is so rare…

Elisa: Yeah.

Natasha: … and I had already done a lot with it, you know, graduating from the Naval Academy, I thought that was important to hold onto. But the other practical reason is I started to publish, and Robinson, which is my husband’s name, is a very common name, and so when I typed in Google Natasha Robinson there was like five or six of them, and one of them was naked. So, I needed people to know [laughter] that I was not out here letting it all hang out for Jesus. So, I wanted to be very clear that I’m Natasha Sistrunk Robinson, who is fully clothed in public.

Elisa: I just love that! And I want to know so much more about you. So, Natasha, in addition to your name, I mean, you gave us a few clues in terms of your story formation in your answer. I heard black woman, I heard not naked, I heard… I heard Naval Academy. But take us back, you know, just to… in terms of your upbringing, and some of the really amazing choices. I… I heard a lot of intentionality, as well, in you. A lot of strategy, you know, in you. Take us back to who were you as a little girl and how did God form you and bring you forward into who Natasha Sistrunk Robinson is today.

Natasha: Yeah. I don’t think anyone has ever asked me that question publicly, so I’m grateful for that. That you cared enough to ask. But I’m from a small, rural town of Orangeburg, South Carolina, so I’m a Carolina girl. I say that, I spent most of my life living in North Caroline and South Carolina, but I’ve lived up and down the east coast, and in a short stint in Alabama. But, South Carolina small town, and what I love about my hometown is that it’s just really rich in black history and black excellence. So, we have two historically black colleges and universities there, one private and one public, and my mother actually worked at both of them at one point we… when I was a child. So, I have many years where I remember being on college campuses as a kid, so education was always very important to me. My mother worked in the library at Claflin University, and I would go to school, and I would come home and spend a lot of hours under bookshelves in the library. And I didn’t know that was going to lead me to where it has led me, but that’s the reality of… of my life. My biological father died when I was a young age, and so my mother, for a while, she was a single mother and then she remarried to the man who raised us, and he was good to her. He was good to us, and that was… having him in our lives in addition to the love and nurture of my mother was extremely important because he shaped me as a responsible person. He was a strong disciplinarian, but I ran track during that time. And so, my dad… who raised me, I mean, he just really… that was one of the things he really leaned into, so it was like a family thing that we did together. So, I learned how to win by running track. I learned leadership by running track. I learned discipline by running track. I learned about teamwork by running track. And so, that’s something that was a part of my life since I was in sixth grade. So, education, academics, athletics, was all a part of my formation. We were church-going people. I’ve always been a member of the church. I love the church. I love the local church. I will always be, I suspect, in the local church because we were church-going people. Dad sung on qu- on the men’s quartet. Mom sung on the choir. They ushered, you know, they did the whole thing. So, that was part of my formation, and so I… I say to people, I didn’t really come into a personal relationship with the Lord until I went to college, but I was close… I was Jesus proximate, right? Like, I was close enough to not say anything stupid out my mouth, and close enough to call on Him when I got in trouble, but He didn’t become Lord until I became an adult when I was heading off to college.

Elisa: How did you end up at the Naval Academy?

Natasha: Yeah. Yeah. So, I was really good at track, and I was fast enough I made it to nationals somewhere early on. And so, I was really good at track, and specifically I became great at my specialty event, which was the hundred-meter hurdles. And so, my junior year in high school our boys and girls track team, we won the state championship for track. And then my senior year I won first place in my specialty event, the hundred-meter hurdles. So, by the time I graduated high school, I had a lot of scholarship offers. But the reality was I was burnt out on track by the time I got to my senior year. And I did not want to run track in college. And the practical mindset of mine was knowing that if I didn’t want to run anymore, I didn’t perform, I got injured, they would take my scholarship money. And so, my parents had a conversation with me my… in… during my sixth-grade year of saying, Natasha, we think you’re smart. We would love to see you go to college… We don’t have the money to pay for it. You need to figure it out. And so, I was very calculated in my choices as a child from that conversation on to do everything I could to pay my way through college. I wanted a full ride. That was the condition for me going to college. And I had that. I had multiple offers. But the Naval Academy, they started recruiting me my junior year of high school to run track. And the beautiful thing about the Naval Academy is that everybody goes on a academic scholarship. So, even if you are recruited as a athlete, you going to have academic scholarship. So, that was very important to me. I didn’t think I wanted to be in the military, and that was partially my ignorance because I didn’t understand the difference between being an officer or being enlisted. What I knew and what I saw as a child was that recruiters were coming to my cafeteria in high school, and they were recruiting young men and women who were not on the honor roll, by and large. And so, I was like, oh, that’s not for me. That’s all I knew. But I come from a very patriotic family. So, my mother actually served in the army, her father served in the army, he was a World War II vet, her brother served a career in the army, and so, that was always around me. And then on my dad’s side, his sister… one of his sisters had four boys, and three of those four boys, who are my peers, they all went into the military right out of high school. And so, I come from a very patriotic family. We love, you know, our country. We love and appreciate public service, and so, I appreciated that about the Naval Academy. I just thought it wasn’t for me initially, but then they started to educate me more. I became a senior; I had already had a lot of options. I got into my second semester of my senior year, I had not applied to the Naval Academy, but the coach at that school, unbeknownst to me, because I did not live with my parents the last two years of high school, she kept writing my mother. She was sending my mother hand-written notes. She was calling all the time and checking in on me. I didn’t know that. And so, I got to my senior year, I was trying to get close to making a decision, and my mother said to me, Tasha, I… I want you to apply at the Naval Academy. Keep your options open. I didn’t have to, but that’s what she said. My guidance counselor said the same to me. I loved him and I trusted him. And then I had a teacher, this was the catalyst for me, who was a white male who I had a great relationship with. He taught me western civilization, I think, in ninth grade, and we continued the relationship on. And I used to call him Papa [Coursee], and he said to me one day when I was asking about college, we’re having a conversation because my school was like, probably ninety-eight percent African American, and he said to me, he said, sweetheart, this is not the real world. He said, you need to go out into the real world and compete, he said, because I believe you can fly with the best of them. And so…

Eryn: Look, gives me chills, yes.

Natasha: … you know, I trusted him. I believed him as well. And so, the Naval Academy, in addition to providing me a full ride, which was a condition, they paid me to go to school. My parents didn’t have a lot of money. I wanted to make sure I could take care of myself. I wanted to get myself off from my parents’ books, I didn’t want them worrying about me. So, everything was taken care of, they were paying me to go to school, they were giving me a great education, which was a condition, and also, they were guaranteeing me a career. At that time, in the late ‘90s, I knew a lot of college graduates. They weren’t working. And I’m like, I need a job.

Elisa: Yeah, you… yeah.

Natasha: And not just a job, preferably a career. So, that was important. All those things were the reason why I decided to go to the Naval Academy in opposed to other schools.

Elisa: Yeah, gosh.  And you have since done further education, and you’ve had a lot of really interesting, cool jobs. And now your focus is leadership. But, you know, just kind of fill in a few of those blanks. What other pieces of education did you get and maybe why. And then, you know, take us forward into today and where you’re focusing your energy and time.

Natasha: Yeah, I got my Masters of Arts in Christian Leadership from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, at their Charlotte campus, and now I’m finishing up my doctorate work. I’m… I’m in dissertation-writing mode for my Doctorate of Ministry. I was in a three-year cohort between North Park Theological Seminary and Fuller. I’m in urban ministry leadership, so that’s kind of the academic side of things. Workwise, I graduated from the Naval Academy 2002, served six years as an officer in the Marine Corps, I was actually a financial management officer. I left there to go work at the Department of Homeland Security, and I did some work there for about three and a half years in their International Corporate Programs Office, which is in their Science and Technology Directorate. And I quit that job to go to seminary, and I went from seminary to what, I guess, people would call public ministry. That public ministry includes writing, and speaking, and coaching, and also, I lead a… a non-profit. I’m a visionary leader for a non-profit. But I’m also a small business owner because you have to pay your bills. [Laughter.] So, I do a… quite a bit of leadership executive coaching and leadership consultation, as well as some diversity, equity, inclusion work with my small business, T3 Leadership Solutions.

Elisa: T3 Leadership. Now, what’s the T3 stand for?

Natasha: Tell the truth.

Elisa: Oh, wow!

Natasha: T3 Leadership Solutions is what my work is there, and then my non-profit is Leadership LINKS Incorporated, and the LINKS for that stand… stands for our five core values of love, inspiration, network, knowledge, and service.

Eryn: Wow. So, tell the truth. Tell me why that is important to you.

Natasha: No, yes. [Laughter.] I don’t know. My mom had these sayings. So, my mom passed away my sophomore year of college, and you know, there’s just things that she said that kind of always rang in my ears. She’s like, you lie, you cheat. You cheat, you steal. You steal, you might kill.

Elisa: Wow.

Natasha: Right? Because one of those things where I’ve grown in grace in a few things. I don’t stomach lying well. I’d rather hear the horrid thing than not. And I… I have discovered over the years, I have more of a prophetic leaning, and I don’t say that in any prideful, boastful, or even confident way, because prophets are not treated well in the Bible. I say it just because, you know, whatever I see, or whatever I pray about, and whatever God reveals to me to say, I just say that. Right? Because it vexes my spirit to not say it.

Elisa: Yeah, we’ve talked about this, that there are a couple of different definitions of prophesy. You know, one is to predict the truth or what’s going to happen.

Natasha: Yeah. No.

Elisa: But what you’re talking about is bringing forth the truth. Yeah.

Natasha: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is more of what we see in Jeremiah. You know, those type of prophets. So, just speaking what, thus says the Lord. And a lot of times that’s just pointing people back to the Word, and so I think especially now in the last few years where we start renaming lies, right? We give… lies new names. And Christians have still gotten behind that type of behavior. And so, I think we need people to say, hey, truth telling is a spiritual discipline. It’s something that God requires of us. And I think, you know, I’ve been inspired also… you know my memoir is called A Sojourner’s Truth, by Sojourner Truth. And, you know, Sojourner is who we are in this world that’s not made for us, you know, it’s a result of fallenness mostly. But for her, her identity as a black person and as a woman, but also the truth, meaning what God has called us to proclaim. So, she renamed herself Sojourners Truth, and so she’s been a huge inspiration to me, being a woman who was not just a Christian but also was a advocate for… the rights of black people and the rights of women.

Elisa: And Sojourner Truth, some people might not really know what that word, sojourner, means. How do you define it? Or how did she define that in naming herself that?

Natasha: Yeah… So, she said, like a sojourner is, you know, a… a wanderer, someone who’s, you know, travelling from place to place. I would define it as a sense of, you know, homelessness. But I also, and I don’t see that… say that necessarily in a negative way, because I do see, you know, throughout the Bible, like, we are a mobile people, you know. God called Abraham to move from a place of comfort that was his home to go to another land that he did not know. And he took that act in faith. And I’ll go all the way to the New Testament in the book of Acts where God gave the instruction to His disciples to go forth, you know, to carry the Word… Judah, and Samaria, to all the ends of the earth. And part of the… the reason persecution came is cause they didn’t do that. They stayed where the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost, but God is like, I told you to take the Word out. Right? And so, I think it’s very important that, particularly those of us in the west who are used to being stationary and have great comfort in that, that there’s a willingness for us to go…

Eryn: To journey.

Natasha: … And to… And… and to understand that this world is not our home, and so we need to be always mindful and thinking, I think, for the… for the kingdom that is and is to come, because I think that orients us into how we show up in this world.

Eryn: Yeah. That’s so good, Natasha. You know, I want to go back to when you were sharing how, you were talking about how truth and honesty is so important. And one of the things when I reflect back on my life, there was a time where I was really uncomfortable and scared of being seen and to be seen I feel like you have to be truthful and honest with who you are and where you are at. And how that connects with your relationship with the Lord, you know, and I… I didn’t even want to be seen by Him, and… let alone other people. I had just had this wall around me. I didn’t recognize that I was that way. I would just love to hear, like, what was it that brought you to that point…

Elisa: Yeah.

Eryn: … where you valued honesty and truth so much. Was there a moment in your life that woke you up to that?

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Natasha: I don’t know if there was a moment, I do think all family’s kind of have their stuff, and my family was not a family that hid things. We were a family that… that’s just… it is what it is. Right? If people on drugs or they… they’re alcoholics, or they… you know, they… there’s a divorce… That’s just what it is. It’s nothing to be ashamed about, it’s just life. And I think part of it was I also come from such a loving family, like, the… the drug addicts and, you know, the alcoholics and the divorced, you can still come around and people gonna love you, they’re gonna give you a plate, right? And… like, nobody…

Eryn: So beautiful.

Natasha: … nobody’s… nobody’s shunned, you know? It’s just, we’re sorry that you’re having a hard time. You know what I’m saying? And so, I think that was part of… But I think the other part of it was I’ve always been seen. I mean, I know that’s old… some women, that’s not their story, and I think some of that is cultural, too, and I think some of that is class as well. But I’ve always been seen, and I’ve always been loved, and I’ve always been affirmed. And so, the difference was going from a community and a family like that to an environment in college where I’m one of very few women, I’m one of very few black people, I’m not, you know, among the elite in the group. There’s a sense that I don’t belong there, and there’s all kinds of stories, and narratives, and postures that people have towards you because they don’t see the same way that you see yourself, that God sees you, that people who love you, your family, your community that you came from, see you. And they let you know that. And one of things I write about in my memoir is that I’m so thankful that when people told me lies about myself, I just didn’t believe them. And I think the reason I didn’t believe them is because I already knew the truth, and so it… holding on to the truth about myself was survival for me.

[Music.]

Elisa: When we come back, Natasha will share what some of us have missed out about cultural and class differences. These differences can impact how we view or listen to people, and we may not even recognize it.

Eryn: Hey, y’all. God Hears Her recently celebrated it’s hundredth episode. If you haven’t checked out the episode, you can find it on our website or anywhere you listen to your podcasts. As part of the celebration, we also want to offer you a special, limited-edition God Hears Her tote, filled with things that you’ll love, including the three devotional books, God Hears Her, God Sees Her, and God Loves Her, with pens, and stickers, and a notebook, and other great goodies, too. You’ll want to get your hands on this ASAP. Check it out on our God Hears Her website. That’s godhearsher.org/shop. Again, that’s godhearsher.org/shop. Let’s rejoin Natasha on this episode of God Hears Her.

Elisa: You know one of the contexts that you just touched on that I’d love to hear you talk a little bit more about is that of… class and culture, I think you said. When we shift, of course, we… we could come to see ourselves incorrectly…

Natasha: Sure.

Elisa: … in the culture and the class that we’re raised in. Or, as you were relating, you saw yourself truthfully in your culture and your class, the one you were raised in, and then when you went outside of it, it was challenged. How do you see, and with the people that you work with, your sisters, your brothers, how do you see the differences of culture and class working in ways that we need to be more conscious of?

Natasha: I think it… it’s… it’s a lot of layers to it, right? So, when Eryn, when you were sharing, I’m like, oh yeah, I know that, not personally, but I know friends, right? I know, I mean, part of that, I have a pretty diverse community of friends, and so for example with my sisters that are Asian American it’s a cultural thing.

Elisa: Oh, totally.

Natasha: You know, it’s a cultural thing for them as to how they show up, and how they’re perceived, and what’s considered right, the way to respond to things. And that’s professionally and that’s also personally in relationships of other people. So, I… I would say that just from a kind of culture perspective. I was just talking to one of my friends yesterday who’s an indigenous woman, and she was like, I’m just glad we’re not invisible anymore, like, you know 20 years ago, 30 years ago. It was like out of sight, out of mind, like don’t ask, don’t tell policy regarding indigenous people. And it’s like what in the world have we done to ourselves, you know, and to each other. But I think the class thing is different, too, because then we start talking about power and privilege. And I think the challenge is the people with the most power and privilege are the ones that are making decision, make… making policy, educating people, writing about other folks, and these are folks, unfortunately, by and large, they don’t have relationships with. They don’t personally know. And so, I know a lot of the work I do when I… when I’m in circles, we’re talking about biblical justice, and we’re talking about lament, Scripture disciplines of lament, and these types of things. The importance of having people on the margins, whether that’s, you know, poor people, or women, or children, or people that are disabled, or, you know, any number… The having the people of the margins recognizing and honoring the image of God in them, and that we don’t need to speak for them. Like, they already have a voice, right?

Eryn: Right.

Natasha: Just because they might not have the same money, or the same class, or the same education as you does not mean they’re less spiritual, or they don’t have anything to offer, or we can’t learn from them. So, I think it’s a posture of humility for those of us that are privileged in different ways to really honor and value the whole body of Christ. And I also think, you know, speaking with Our Daily Bread, because you have a global ministry, I think it’s a ways that our western-church way of being and thinking could be revolutionized, really, and maybe that’s too powerful a word. Redeemed, revived, if we were more humble in learning from the global church.

Elisa: Yeah. We get so proud. Think we have it all. You’re talking about all the division all around us, and I’m hearing already that, you know, in your words and principles, of leading. Because that’s so your bent. You know, I… I can… If I could cull them out, you know, I… I was hearing you talking about humility, you know, to… to look at others with humility. How would you principalize, or share what you’ve learned about, how to, as a leader, how we can be peacemakers and truthtellers, with our crazy divided, messed-up world?

Natasha: I would speak to you about my fundamental mission for leadership, because I think that’s going to answer your question. Because I do think sometimes we’re in cultural spaces, and we’re talking about being peacemakers, because that makes us feel good. And we are calling for peace, as the prophet says, peace, peace when there is no peace, because there’s some things we need to get right first before we can have true shalom. Right? If we are a un-confessing, unrepentant people, there will be no peace in the land. And so, I think we need to be honest about that.

Elisa: So, this is where the justice comes ringing true. Yeah.

Natasha: This is where the justice piece comes, you know. But also, just the honesty piece, right? Like that, you know, God is a righteous judge, and the Holy Spirit reminds us of what is or is not true. But what I will say is one thing I realized early in my journey, and I think this is because my personal relationship with the Lord started, like I said, at the time I was going to college, and so, I was being formed in a lot of ways. I was being spiritually formed, I was being formed as a leader, I was already a leader, but I was being a form and trainer, very specific way in a military environment. That’s very important. And for me, that has really directly impacted the way I approach the biblical text, and the way I show up as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Chiefly because there’s a lot of military language in the Bible. And so, I think there are things I see in the text, that are things I’m able to engage with that other people will miss cause they haven’t been trained in the military, right? You know, there’s a lot of language for that in the Old Testament but also in the new, because they’re in, you know, Roman environment. Paul is using a ton of biblical metaphors to communicate a message about spiritual things, and so, I find myself doing that. So, if I were to take you back to my early training days in the Marine Corps, I was told there are two things that are important. Only two: mission accomplishment, and troop welfare. That’s it. You get your job done, in the Marine Corps that’s women battles. And you take care of your people, that’s troop welfare. You take care of your people. Right? We don’t leave Marines behind, we always go out with a buddy, these are just kind of fundamental things. So, when I started doing mentoring and discipleship ministry in my church and I’m seeing Christians who supposed to have a higher calling, a better mission, like, we have an assignment, right? If our mission is to “seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness,” and “make disciples of all nations,” right? I think that’s the mission. That’s the call. But people were so passive, nonchalant. I’ll get around to it maybe…

Elisa: Right.

Natasha: … if I have time…

Eryn: Yup.

Natasha: And I was just like, do we have a mission? Right? Because… because in the Marine Corps we don’t have…

Elisa: Yeah.

Natasha: … a choice of not doing our mission. You know what I’m saying? Because why? Because lives are at stake. And my thing is, in our world, right, for our fa- lives are at stake.

Eryn: Yeah.

Natasha: Souls are hanging in the balance.

Eryn: Yeah.

Natasha: And so, there’s a way I show up as a disciple of Christ, the way I lead with an urgency all the time. Because we have a mission, right? And so that’s number one. And then troop welfare. It’s just taking care of your people. And that’s… and there’s a lot of layers to that, right? You know, in the Marine Corps sometimes that’s checking out your feet, right? And make sure, like, you’re not frostbitten, or… or you know, you’re not injured. The check each other for ticks, to make sure, you know, we don’t get Lyme disease. I mean there are… you know, to dig a foxhole that… that if I’m sleeping and you’re on watch, you’re not sleeping.

Eryn: Right.

Natasha: Right? There are all kinds of ways that we learn to take care of each other. To share a meal, right? If you’re running out of water, you share your canteen with people. You go back and catch that person on the run if they get a cramp, you put them on your back. Right? That’s what we do in the Marine Corps. And so, when I got into work in the church, it’s like I think sometimes we use people for profit. If I can be honest, [Music.] I think we use people up for their skills and their talents, and don’t have a care or concern for their humanity, and their family, and their health, and their needs. I think technology hasn’t helped us with that, I think there’s a lot of good things about technology, but I also think there are some things that we need to address in our discipleship. And one things people say about me sometimes, and I… I didn’t realize this about myself, but they say that Natasha sees people. Right? I think we have some idea, because I read the book of where God and where Jesus wants people to be. But they have to start somewhere, right? And so, I’m trying to be attentive to where people actually are. Like what they’re struggling with, what questions are they asking, to get them from where they are, not because of my might, because I don’t have the power to change people.

Eryn: Right.

Natasha: But what I do is I’ll avail myself as a vessel in partnership with the Holy Spirit that does have the power to change heart and renew minds. And I believe God can do that, and God does that, and God is still doing that. And that’s a miracle every time it happens, right? It’s a miracle when it happened to me, and I thank God for it. And so, in saying that, you know, I’m like, I just want to journey with people where… however long God gives me, and whatever method, that’s writing sometimes, that’s speaking sometimes, sometimes that’s giving a hug, you know, that’s sometimes a video conference or a phone call, or, you know, Bible study, whatever. Whatever may, you know, leadership, discipleship training. I build myself to be used as a vessel of the Holy Spirit, so that people believe that God sees them, that they are known by God, that God loves them, that God cares, that God will not forsake or abandon them on this journey, and trusting that God will carry them to the end.

[Music.]

Elisa: I love Natasha’s explanation of our journey with God and how it impacts our journey with people.

Eryn: Natasha brought so much insight about being on mission for God’s kingdom, and how we can all start by listening and getting to know those around us.

Elisa: Yes, Eryn. Well, before we close out today’s episode of God Hears Her, we want to remind you that the show notes are available in the podcast description. And there’s also a link to check out Natasha’s website. You can also connect with Eryn and me on social. All of this is on our website at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher.org.

Eryn: Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget, God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His.

[Music.]

Elisa: Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Daniel Ryan Day and Jade Gustman. Yup, it’s Gustman not Gustafson, because Jade got married. We also want to recognize Krista and Nicole for all their help and support. Thanks everyone.

[Music.]

Eryn: God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.