Navigating Anxiety and Finding Faith

God Hears Her Podcast

Episode 230 – Navigating Anxiety and Finding Faith with Rebekah Lyons

Eryn Adkins & Vivian Mabuni with Rebekah Lyons

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Rebekah: Even the Lord illuminates, this is what I believe, He… He reveals what He’s ready to heal. He will illuminate and bring it to us at a season where He’s like, I will be with you, and I will equip you for everything you need to push back the dark. But… it’s time to, like, come into the light on some of these things. And so it was almost like the collision of all these things surfacing, that that’s the night that my husband began to pray for me, and I raised my hand and the Spirit gave me words, and I just said, “Rescue me. Deliver me. I cannot do this without You.”

[Music]

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Vivian: All right, Eryn, we are in for a treat today. I’m so excited that we have the opportunity to interview the Rebekah Lyons…

Eryn: Yay.

Vivian: … Rebekah, as you know, is a bestselling author. She is a national/international speaker. She’s a podcast host. I’m blessed to call her friend, and in my time of knowing Rebekah, what has really stood out to me about her is that she is able to hold a beautiful balance of tenderness and compassion, and she’s just wicked smart. Like, I just… and fierce. So, this combination of just…

Eryn: Love it.

Vivian: … fierce, and kind, and smart, but compassion… I mean, it’s just, all of it. So, Rebekah, we are grateful that you are here with us on the God Hears Her podcast, so, welcome!

Rebekah: Thank you. That’s the best intro ever…

Vivian: Oh, yeah.

Rebekah: … I’m going to tell my kids, I’m like, “She said I was wicked smart,” So… [laughter] When you guys want to mock me… when you want to mock me as the teen young adults that you are, just know.

Vivian: Well, the type of conversations and the things that you would bring up when we would talk about deep theological things just really, to me, reflected that you are a really deep thinker. And… that was something that didn’t come up in just natural conversation…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Vivian: … but I have so admired that about you, Rebekah. And Eryn, I mean, here we are. We have the opportunity to talk with Rebekah, and one of her…

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: … just, emphases is really on how we bring together our mind, and our soul, our heart, our whole lives, our whole beings, and kind of live with integrity, like, with wholeness, with being grounded people. And Rebekah has such a powerful story of how, through her own life, she’s learned about anxiety, depression, mental health, those kinds of issues. But before we jump into all that, Rebekah, for our listeners, it would be great to hear some of your spiritual journey and how…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Vivian: … God became real in your life.

Rebekah: Oh, yes. Thank you… well, it’s a… always a joy to talk about Jesus and how He intersects, intervenes, interrupts our lives. But I grew up in a Christian home, you know. I was born on Mother’s Day, in church by Wednesday, most likely… My parents just taught me about life with Jesus at a young age. And so, it was always kind of normal in my home to be in church a lot, and… they were both Christian school teachers at the time, so I do remember a specific moment of wanting to ask Jesus to come into my heart. It was kind of the… the way it was framed for me in my independent fundamental Baptist church. And I remember being there on a Sunday night, and those were for the die-hards, right? Sunday nights and Wednesday nights. And so, I just was cautious, but went up to the end, to the altar, and like I said, I wanted to ask Jesus to come to my heart. And I remember praying, and then it was, like, a little rejoicing, cause it was, like, not a big church, but a sweet church that I grew up in all my elementary years. And… remember getting baptized a couple months after that. And… we had something in elementary school called Awana or Cubbies, like, a lot of people…

Eryn: Oh, yeah.

Rebekah: … are still very familiar with, and we read King James, I mean, cause that’s how we did it. And so, we… I’d memorize all these verses in the King James Bible, which I didn’t really understand, a lot of those big words…

Eryn: How old were you?

Rebekah: … So, at five I accepted Christ, and then starting from then on, like, you know, you had…

Eryn: Okay.

Rebekah: … Cubbies and then Awa… like, you know, all of the different vests that you would get, and the patches, and all the things. And so, Scripture memory was, because I’m kind of competitive and a firstborn, you know, whatever the motivation, whether it was appropriate or not, I did hide God’s Word in my heart. And I didn’t understand it all. In general, I think kind of my upbringing was more about… as a firstborn, I wanted to please God, and I wanted to please my parents, and I wanted to please my teachers, and my youth leaders, and all of the Christian influencers in my life. And so, I think sometimes my relationship with God was a little bit contingent on me doing it the way that I was supposed to do based on the context I was in. And so, I remember that kind of hitting a… like, a jarring disruption in sixth grade, because we went to this Bible camp every summer. And the message that week was that if there’s still sin in your life, then maybe you’re not… maybe you’re not a Christian. Maybe you didn’t fully mean it. Or… or if you’re blatantly, maybe, like… I don’t know, maybe I misunderstood it fully. But this idea of, like…

Eryn: But that was your takeaway, would you… [inaudible]

Rebekah: Yeah, no, it was kind of like…

Eryn: You know? Yeah.

Rebekah: … And so, you got to, like, double down and pray that prayer again just to make sure it stuck…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And so there was almost this fear of, like, am I really a follower of Jesus or am I, you know, am I really saved, was the language. And… and so, I remember everyone re-praying the prayer. Like, even my counselor. Like, my camp counselor’s re-praying. And I’m like, if it didn’t take for her, like, then probably… my whole cabin’s getting re-saved. And there was just something in me that was a rebel, even in that moment. I was like, I don’t know. And that was, I think, the Holy Spirit. I think there was this, like, still, small voice. It’s like, this feels like a message of fear. And so, for me, I just wrestled with it cause I was like, do I really believe that I didn’t mean what I said when I was five? You know? And I was like, no, I think I did. And it… I didn’t really know maybe at that time what I was being saved from, but I did know that I believed that the story of Jesus was true and that I felt His nearness, you know, even in… kind of in my spirit and, as a child, and I’m not going to act like that isn’t real, even if I, like, have a thought that I don’t want, Right? Have an intrusive thought of, like, you know, stealing a piece of candy from my friend. I don’t know. So, I just decided I was not going to do it, and that took courage, honestly. I didn’t do it…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … at camp, and I got back home, and I was like, nope, I’m not going to do it. And I just kind of got with God on it, and I was just like, I think we know that this is real, even though I’m… I’m a sinner, I understand, in desperate need of a savior, saved by Your grace… but I… I already know that my walk with You is real. And so, it was almost like a testing of, like… You know how the enemy always tries to elicit doubt, right? And he did it with Eve in the garden, did God really mean…? And he’s always trying to do that. And Israelites, after they’re delivered from Egypt and they’re wandering not very long, and, like, we would’ve been better in… like…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … we always forget. I think the big message of the believer is, like, that we all, like sheep, go astray. We’ve turned because we forget. We just… we need to be remembering. That’s why the Eucharist matters, right? Every time we take the bread and the cup, or not forsake the assembling, it’s because we’re trying to remember that what we’ve already declared is still true…

Vivian: Yes.

Rebekah: … And so, I think that was just a lesson I kind of learned between me and God. It wasn’t something I ever talked to my youth leader about. I never talked to my parents about it. And that, for me, was… almost kind of the beginning of being set apart in some way. Like, that the Lord became, the Holy Spirit Himself, even though I, we called Him the Holy Ghost and it was a little creepy at the time… I… I was like, I know that there’s an attunement here with You and I, and I know that I delight in that, and that I believe that You delight in me. And so, that was sweet…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … in a… kind of an upbringing that was really more legalism, quite frankly, and more like the outside of the cup looking clean. I think there was still some protection… around my heart of just wanting to know God and wanting to feel the nearness and the intimacy of that… And so, that was… that was my… my story with the Lord. Went off to college at… at Liberty in Virginia. Finally was able to wear, like, you know, pants or shorts, cause I couldn’t even wear that, or go to a movie. I had my rebel moments, and even some things I probably tested the boundaries in areas I didn’t need to…

Eryn: How so?

Rebekah: … not… Well, I would, like, oh… I mean, this is a lot, but, like, I wasn’t even eighteen yet and I was… I was elevated to this leader role in my high school of the drum major of the entire marching band…

Vivian: What?

Rebekah: … So, there was, like, eighty…

Eryn: Wow.

Rebekah: … people that I was responsible for, and I was supposed to set the example. And so, we would go to all these different competitions on these… big charter buses, and it was all the southeastern seven states, and we would compete in all these different regions of Florida, and we’d go all over the place. And so, I… I knew I was a leader, but I just felt like I was young as a junior to get that role. So even the seniors were under me. And then I wound up being first chair of thirteen boys who played trumpet. So I was, like, the girl…

Vivian: Wow.

Rebekah: … leading. So, it was always this, like, weird outlier, but what I really needed more than, like, the leadership role, and I, again, would rise to the occasion, but what I needed in my spirit was I wanted to be liked, and I wanted to be known, and I wanted to… Like, to me, if I could just be friendly with everyone, and…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … welcome everyone, and be fun, and goofy, and smart… hopefully… you know, had to do, like, National Honor Society while I was at it. But, like, then I would be… welcomed. I would be loved, you know? I think I just grew up in a little bit more of a stricter environment, so it was always kind of on… the onus was on me. And this is why I think I felt the light with Jesus, cause I didn’t feel this with Jesus, but in general, I felt like I had to perform for love…

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: Right, right.

Rebekah: … And that took a lot of unlearning, of just, like, stop performing for love. And I… I think it gets really messy when that starts to integrate into our faith…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … or even our mothering, or wife-ing, or our friending, you know…?

Vivian: Yes.

Rebekah: … Just to go, what part of this is me kind of adding to what is needed just because I’m afraid of being alone? So, anyways, yeah.

Eryn: That’s hard to do as a mom. I just want to pause there. How did you break free from that thought? Cause it’s one thing to, like, not, like, rationalize it and know it, but there’s another to, like, apply it to your heart and live that out.

Rebekah: Yeah, that was definitely early in my… speaking or writing career. I don’t think I had freed of it, we got to where we had Cade, our firstborn, with Down syndrome at twenty-six, and then my second son, Pierce, at twenty-eight, and then Kennedy at thirty-one. And then we moved to New York City at thirty-six, so I was, like, still… I’d been home about that decade. And then I started having panic attacks in New York, and then, I mean…

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … it’s a longer story, but… but I didn’t ever imagine writing or teaching. That was, like, I would journal, but, like, it was never on the docket that I would have a career helping…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … women or anything. I mean, no…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I was supporting Gabe and helping him, like, kind of behind the scenes on what we had launched with Thinq, our nonprofit… helping people on the front lines of culture. So that… that felt good because I had my hands full with these kids. But then when Kennedy went to kindergarten and we were in New York, that was our first year, I tested a lot of things. I went back to Parsons School of Design, cause I’d always loved design…

Eryn: Wow.

Rebekah: … or interiors or… But even though my major at Liberty was communications, I guess it makes sense now, but at the time, like, whatever. Okay. So, I… I started in New York doing design, whether architectural, or interiors, or fashion. I just… I tested it all cause I loved all that… kind of stuff growing up. And yet, I think I got…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … freed in New York. I don’t even know how else to say it. Like… you wouldn’t think that, like, you go to Paganville from Christianville to get free, but God’s voice just got really loud in that city because it wasn’t, like, comfortable… to follow Jesus. It definitely wasn’t… like, normal or… popular. It was more like I would go to these, like, little church plants and I would just weep in the back row constantly. I would have to, like, go to the bathroom and, like, wipe all my makeup before… I could, like, compose myself. And we, like, helped plant churches with Jon Tyson and other… others on the Upper East Side just as lay leaders… then we did it again downtown in Tribeca. And I just cultivated a heart for the lost there. I… I was very much met with my finitude there and my frailty as, like, this firstborn type-A control freak was, like, kind of really sidelined in a way that while it might feel harsh, you know, that I think it was the Lord just used that season to show my utter dependence on Him. And the fruit of that, the fruit of when we, like, initiate nothing and watch what He can do, is that His ways are always exponentially more than anything we could calculate on our own…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And so, New York to me felt very debilitating initially, but then I found His rescue. I mean, I really found His… healing and His deliverance, out of panic disorder. And then not only that, I started to love the city and skip around the city and… started to just talk and mentor any girl that… that had the time of day, you know… that was willing. This was long before writing still. But then I would say, like… because the first book did well and had, you know, a lot of offers, and I didn’t expect it cause I didn’t, again, have any experience doing it. It all just was, like, this just, like, rogue path that I didn’t ever see coming. That once I started speaking and I thought that wasn’t going to be something for me either, cause I was very nervous, like most normal people, but God just kind of took over there, too. And so, I still think in that first year of teaching and writing, probably the first year that, like, after finally I’m like, oh, I’m… I… I think this is going to be a thing, you know? This isn’t, like, a hobby. It was, like, the first time in a couple decades that I was like, oh, we’re back as a drum major. Like, you got to do this right. You got to impress everybody. You got to be on. You got to be all things to all people. You got to say yes to everyone…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … You got to perform for love. And so, it was almost the first time I was tested with that professionally in, yeah, I guess twenty years…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And… and so, I was in, I was like locked in, you know, like, I was going to be Instagram girl. I was going to, like, schlep my books everywhere. I was going to go to the ends of the earth to do whatever anyone asked. And it was into later that first year, I remember feeling weary already, and I’m just get going so… and I remember hearing Anne Voskamp, who’s a dear friend, who had encouraged me to write in the first place, and she had always been kind of a true blue friend that would always kind of point me back to what really matters. I just heard her on, like, a podcast saying, “Those who keep score in life just want to know that they count. But when you do what you do for an audience of one, you always know that you count.” And I felt so convicted. I was in my hotel room. I think I was speaking at Catalyst or something, and I remember falling on the floor and just saying, “I’m keeping score.” And I just remember like asking the Lord, I was like, um… I said, “I think that’s me. I just want to know that I count, and this is, like, a worth thing.” And I just remember the Spirit saying, you matter to me. Is that not enough? And I was like, “No…”

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … “It’s actually… it’s actually not, apparently…”

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I’d like to say that it is, but it still comes covered in this fear of man, right? This approval of man, this kind of veneer that… that surrounds that goes, oh, I don’t… I guess it isn’t enough. I… I had thought it… it has been enough, like, the communion with You has been sweet. But when all of a sudden I’m now supposed to impress, then all of a sudden I’m looking for love, but I’ll settle for being impressive, right…?

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I’ll settle for just, kind of just be, esteemed or respected, right? Cause it is still a… still a faux veneer of going like, am I enough? Am I worthy of Your love as I am, right…?

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … Or do I just have to kinda layer onto that?

[Music]

Jade: Hey, friends. Do you need some extra encouragement in your life right now? Check out God Sees Her, an inspiring 365-day devotional for women. With that, you can also find God Sees Her for Girls to read along with a daughter, granddaughter, or mentee. And right now, if you order either one, you can get a perfect-for-your-purse cosmetic mirror designed to remind you that God sees you in every moment of your life. Find the links for those in our show notes. Now, back to the show.

Vivian: So, I want to, like, backtrack a little bit because sometimes in a lot of circles, we tend to, like, separate out our mental health with our physical health, with our spiritual health. And I’m curious with your background being more on the legalistic side, when you were faced with mental health, like panic attacks, depression, anxiety, what was going on for you? How did you bring the worlds together to be able to be in a place to start to seek wholeness and healing?

Rebekah: Yeah. Well, I remember clawing those doors open of a… of a subway train or an elevator, cause mine was rooted in claustrophobia. And so, I would, like, get… get out of those places. I would take the nine flights of steps, or I would go walk across Central Park, and I would cry out to God. And then I would like, “What is this?” Like, “What… where are You? What is happening?” So, it’s definitely a lot of tear-filled prayers…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … and there was a lot of journaling. It was early on when people weren’t in the church at all talking about panic attacks…

Vivian: Yeah, yeah.

Rebekah: … or mental health. I mean, I… I didn’t even know who to go to in my church. It was like, “Has…”

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … “anybody ever struggled with depression or anxiety?” But it was almost God continually nudging me, because I was reading… I think I had read Anne’s book One Thousand Gifts, and I was starting a gratitude journal. And I was reading other books. I was with a group of four girls that met every Tuesday for a Bible study. I joke that it was a support group with some Scripture thrown in, but it was definitely still like we… we all loved the Lord.  We were all getting together. We were all praying for one another. And so, it was a year into this panic disorder that in September 20th of 2011, so a little over a year after it had begun, that they… they laid hands on me and prayed for me. And I didn’t ask for it or wasn’t looking for it, but that night I woke out of a dream, and I have a panic attack. I understand now that so much of this is rooted in our origin stories… so even just the dream was about someone in my family. And so, it’s like… it’s just… it’s… stuff is all connected, even the Lord illuminates, this is what I believe. He… He reveals what He’s ready to heal. He will illuminate and bring it to us at a season where He’s like, I will be with you, and I will equip you for everything you need to push back the dark. But… it’s time to, like, come into the light on some of these things…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And so, it was almost like the collision of all these things surfacing that that’s the night that my husband began to pray for me, and I raised my hand and the Spirit gave me words, and I just said, “Rescue me. Deliver me. I cannot do this without You.” And in…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … that moment, my body broke on the bed, and it was done. And I felt, like, the weight of God’s glory, even though at the time I didn’t know what it was. I couldn’t move. I couldn’t… My eyes were, like, kind of doing this, but I was like, I don’t know what’s happening…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I wouldn’t have called it healing at the time cause I wasn’t even sure where I stood on that…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I mean, just truly, let’s just be honest…

Vivian: Yeah.

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … Like, we had a lot of unspokens growing up, but I’m not really sure that we saw people, like, get out of a wheelchair and walk, right…?

Vivian: Right, right.

Rebekah: … So, it was more kind of like, I don’t know where I am on my theology of this, but all I know is that I’ve been living in fear…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … for a year and a half, and that is… And He… God told me and reminded me again the next day when I walked out of my apartment. He’s like, your life verse has been, “I’ve not given you a spirit of fear, but power, love, and a sound mind.” And I didn’t have another panic attack for seven years. So, God…

Vivian: Wow.

Rebekah: … had to give me a rescue story like that because He knew I’d be smart enough to try to figure it out in the neuroscience way, right? In, in the clinical way…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … but He’s like, I want you to actually see the collision of… of My spirit doing the healing supernatural work that Christ has done since the beginning, while also knowing that you can proactively take steps for that repair. And so, Psalm 18 was my psalm of deliverance, and the way that text goes, it says, “You reached down from on high and You pulled me out of a deep well. You rescued me from, like, this wild oppression because You delighted in me.” And then it says…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … “And with my God I can attack. You set my feet on a wide open place,” right? So, You pull me out of a pit, Sheol. You… you set my feet on, right outside of that pit, and then You said You set my feet on a wide open place, right? For someone with its claustrophobia, a wide open place feels really inviting…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And then he says, “And with my God, I can attack a barrier and leap a wall.” So, the psalm never ended by the fact that I was in torment in Sheol, in the pit, but that You… You lifted me out, and that You didn’t just lift me out of the pit to stand there on the side and, like, go, “Wow, that was a, that was a big pit.” But it was like, no, now there’s a wide-open place in front of you, and now I’m going to invite you to attack and leap, attack barriers that come into your life and leap over walls. It’s not just a story of… of deliverance and rescue. It’s one of flourishing, thriving, and freedom. And so, I knew that, like, oh wow, this physical thing is going to be a metaphor for what You’re going to do in the next year in the supernatural. And what God had to free me physically became first, but… but what He freed me from emotionally or…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … spiritually was, like, a heart healing of…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … just never feeling worthy of His love, never feeling worthy of, just as I am, you know? Like, that there was always more that I had to kind of make up for… and that hustle culture is all built on that, right? Like, that we have to just keep adding and adding to be enough for God, and enough for our people, right? And for me that just… it felt like a message ingrained from day one. And… when I had that moment with Anne Voskamp’s words, and God says, you matter to Me, and I’m like, I… I guess I have built my persona on the success is not really just about You. It’s so much about what the world sees and living a life of significance. And…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … and then when I finally said it, I was like, whew, I just prayed this prayer, like, heal my heart. Like, whatever broken parts of my heart that have needed all of this, like, I can still try to will myself into not caring, but…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … I don’t want to do that forever. I want there to come a moment where I truly don’t care…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … Like, that I’m not building my life on kind of the… the props that other people are trying to put… there. And that took time. That just takes time. It’s a lot of unlearning and… but it was a rescue healing.

Eryn: When I was going to ask you, you know, what were… what were some symptoms? I know you mentioned panic attacks. What were other symptoms that you saw that were coming out? Because maybe externally it didn’t look that way, but internally, you know, there was a lot going on. So, what were…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Eryn: … some symptoms, maybe somebody that’s listening that could maybe… that identify with that, which I think is everybody…

Rebekah: Yeah. I think symptoms for me were depression, but it was more like a numbing, like a low… or a lot of grief. And I… and I find what happens…

Eryn: Like low energy? Is, like…

Rebekah: Yeah…

Eryn: … you wake up with no energy kind of thing, or what is it?

Rebekah: Yeah. Like, a lot of … Well, we lived in New York, so the only benefit of that is that I was in a pedestrian culture. So, actually for the first time didn’t have seasonal depression that winter because I had to get out and move my body every day, which creates serotonin in the brain, which is the happy hormone that you can get either through medication, but you can get it naturally through just a lot of movement and elevating your heart rate…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And so, I… I… I was like, wow, so I didn’t have as much depression in that moment once I came out of all this because it was almost like a new day…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … But symptoms often can be a numbing or racing hearts. And still today, I mean, I write the Rhythms book around this idea that, like, eighty-five percent of us have physical symptoms of stress, which is racing heart, sleepless… nights, a mind that won’t quit… shallow breathing. All of these are anxious things, physiologically happening…

Vivian: Yeah, yeah.

Rebekah: … but I also find there’s a loneliness epidemic that will lead into depression as well. And so, when I was, like, full tilt on my social media and being all things to all people online, my intimacy with my husband or my kids were not where they are now. And it’s partly because you can only give so much…

Vivian: Yeah, right.

Rebekah: … And you can either throw it, like splatter paint on a wall and hope something sticks and somebody…

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … is impacted by it, or you can actually disciple the people right in front of you because those are the people that are going to be with you for the next several…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … decades if the Lord tarries. So, I think, this is the probably the most robust season of… vitality that I’ve been in probably in the last five or six years because I just stopped trying so hard online.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: Yes. Well, I do think about, like, this up-and-coming generation, and this TikTok culture, and the YouTube culture, where it’s just always having to produce new content, new content, new content so that you won’t lose people, and the mindset and the trajectory of that leads to… It’s just unsustainable.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: And I think, you know…

Rebekah: Yeah. Cause burn out is giving from an empty place, right?

Vivian: Exactly, exactly.

Rebekah: And all it… all it does is take, you know…?

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … There’s no refilling coming from that medium.

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: I think that that’s so, so huge. So, how do people trade stress and anxiety for peace and joy? How would you answer that question, Rebekah?

Rebekah: Yeah. I… I would say just for me, just living this rhythmic life became more of a prevention care. You know, like after that rescue moment happened and I’m like, well, what does it look like to attack and leap a wall? What would it look like to…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … flourish, to have vitality, to not just kind of have a baseline that you’re managing or coping? Cause a lot of medication…

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … whether it’s the medication that is a prescription or maybe it’s just medication of just shopping online, or retail, or, like, whatever our thing is that kind of helps us numb or escape…

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … some level of pain. But all that really is doing is helping us cope, right? It…

Vivian: Right. Right

Rebekah: … There is not a healing that is happening. It’s like we’re… it’s just how we manage pain, right…?

Vivian: That’s right.

Rebekah: … It doesn’t say that the pain might lift, right, or that the darkness might lift. It might go, well… if it is what it is…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … then this is kind of our means of getting through it…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … And I just don’t believe that Jesus invites us into the zoe life, the divine eternal resurrection life, is not that. It’s… it’s…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … it’s an abundance, and it’s kind of frustrating cause you’re like, well, but also in this world we have trouble and life is hard and there’s a lot of…

Eryn: Grief, yeah.

Rebekah: … like, yeah, there’s so much grief, but I think we have more grief because we ignore the grief, right? So…

Vivian: Yes.

Eryn: Exactly, yeah.

Rebekah: I think I have… Neurologically, depression grows because it’s been buried. Like, there’s a passion that has been depressed. It’s been an emotion that has been pushed down and not…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … resolved or felt. And so, if we can’t grieve, we can’t be comforted…

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … And so, the Scriptures even tell us, like, if… “I comfort you so you can comfort others.” And so, if… if you’re not showing up like David… with lament, you know, like true travail about, like, the loss or the longing, and get honest with the Lord about those things…

Vivian: Yes, yes. Yeah.

Rebekah: … He can handle it… When we get to that place where we don’t withhold from Him, then all of a sudden we’re able to get that out of our bodies a lot faster…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … right? There’s not room for resentments to grow or bitterness to take root…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … or… or even… unforgiveness. I mean, we can go… we can go a whole day about just talking on unforgiveness and what that does in the gut, and what that…

Vivian: Yes.

Rebekah: … can do in the body. And so, all of this is so intertwined. When you said at the beginning, Viv, about how everything is integrated, right? The mind, the body, the soul. The rhythmic life for me has forced me to see life that way, right? That the rest rhythm is about the abiding and the communion with the Lord, like, that inner life, the inner life…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … with the Lord in solitude. The restore rhythm is all about the physical life. Am I physically living and moving and You have my being, or is this just…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … staying cerebral?

Vivian: Right.

Rebekah: … Cause if our faith stays cerebral…

Eryn: Right.

Rebekah: … then we can… we can do a lot of lectures and take a lot of notes, but we are not living in the way of Jesus. We’re not walking…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … as He walked and… and laying hands as He laid hands, or cultivating… I mean, all His analogies. I mean, since I started …

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … gardening, all of a sudden I have so much respect for the vine and the branch, and so much understanding of God’s provision versus my, like, making things happen. Like, I go to bed and there’s…

Vivian: Yes.

Rebekah: … like, five new cucumbers on the vine, and the next morning I’m like, all I did was prune and lift it to the sun. That’s all I did. Pull it off the ground and pull off the dead stuff. And that’s the metaphor for all of us, right? Like, we really aren’t responsible for the fruit, ever…

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: Yeah. Yes.

Rebekah: … We’re just responsible to remain, and to tend, and to take care, and to… and ask Him to prune off anything that’s dead or… or causing moth or rust or, you know, anything to…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … just stand in the way of that. And then the…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … the… then the outer life, right, is the connect rhythm and the create rhythm. So, the connect is our relationships, and that begins at home…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … The health of your relationships is not going to get any higher than the ceiling of your relationships at home, the health at home…

Vivian: That’s so good.

Rebekah: … And then the last one is the create, which is vocare, right? Like the vocare, the… the Latin word of to call, like… what is our calling? What is God, as our Caller, inviting us into with Him? And then all of a sudden you’re not… you’re not getting ahead of Him or behind him. You’re walking in step in that inner life, that physical life, and that communal life. And then that, you’re not… you’re not shrinking back, though, from the invitation to go do, to go run…

Vivian: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebekah: … right, to go leap… but you’re not getting ahead of Him. There’s a comfort in that. There’s a comfort..

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … in the waiting season. There’s a comfort in the pressing gas, pressing brake. Like, Jesus did that. He modeled it so beautifully…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … and so He’s just like walk in step with My Spirit. There’s…

Eryn: Yeah.

Rebekah: … It’s not a sprint…

Vivian: Yeah.

Rebekah: … It’s a long game, right?

Vivian: One of the things that struck me even in our conversation, Rebekah, is how you had a group of women in New York City that you were meeting with, that you were beginning to be able to speak out some of these things that were happening, and to have safe places to practice, like, I feel overwhelmed, and to have people that are safe enough to be able to explore it and not get all bent out of shape because of our emotions. And…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Vivian: … that does require intentionality, and it requires…

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: … picking people that aren’t going to Bible verse it away or fix it, you know, those kinds of relationships are sometimes hard to find…

Rebekah: Right.

Vivian: … but I do think it… it… we cannot heal, unless we deal with what we feel.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Vivian: And this has been such a rich conversation that I know we could have many, many more that would spin off of many of the things that you have shared. But I would love for you to pray for the listener…

Eryn: Yeah.

Vivian: … who is in a place where they are feeling that disconnect and are looking for hope. They are longing for that vitality. If you would pray for her, we would love that just to kind of end our conversation.

Rebekah: Yes, absolutely. My joy. Thank you for having me… Jesus, we love You, and we just give You praise, and glory,and honor, Lord, that… this is the day that You have made, and we will rejoice and be glad. And I know sometimes it feels like a sacrifice of praise, like, it’s not something that comes easily. I pray for the listener right now who is walking through maybe the valley of the shadow of death. Maybe there’s a dark night of the soul, this season where it’s just there’s a lot of loss, and there might be adversity without an end date, and I understand that. I just understand that so well. A special needs mama of almost twenty-five years. I understand that every day is unknown and sometimes scary and hard. But I just pray right now, Lord, that You would remind her what You remind me, is that You never leave us or forsake us. Like, You are right here in the trenches with us, and that You, Jesus, are a man of sorrows well acquainted with grief. You understand grief. You have sweat drops of blood. You have cried for the people that you love. You have cried on behalf of all who are coming to know You. And so, I just pray that whoever is struggling today that hears this, Lord, that they would know that they are not alone and that this is not the end of their story. Thank You that death always precedes resurrection. And so, God, I pray that we wouldn’t get too stuck in today’s moment, this light momentary affliction, because it’s producing in us this incomparable weight of glory. And I just pray, God, that they would feel that, that they would feel that, like, while there’s something really hard right now, Lord, there is something that You’re forging in them that cannot be shaken. It cannot be taken from them… it’s, like, tried by fire, Lord, so I pray right now that You would renew them in their spirit. You would make them new. That they would wake tomorrow with, like, a skip in their step. They would have the desire to pull open Your Word. They would have a desire to walk with You in the cool of the day, and to talk to You, and just to whisper to You. And if they wake in the middle of the night and they’re not sleeping well, Lord, may they just say Your name and just start talking to You and praying. And I just pray that, Lord, we would get back into this ongoing dialogue with You, God. It’s not a start and end prayer. It’s just a conversation that never has to stop. And I just pray, God, that they would feel Your closeness and Your nearness, Lord. That You are their shield, You are their source, You are their help, You are their guide, You are their lamp, You are their light, and You are their peace. Jesus, we submit and we come under your covering of peace. Thank you for being the Prince of Peace. And thank You for telling and promising us and we just thank You, Lord, that the peace You give, the world cannot give. And so, we submit to that. We claim that promise. And we just ask all these things in Your mighty name. Amen.

Vivian: Amen.

Eryn: Amen. Yay. Thank you, Rebekah. [Music] Well, friends, be sure to check out our website to subscribe to our email list or check out the God Hears Her books and devotionals. Find all that and more at godhearsher.org. That’s godhearsher.org.

Vivian: Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget, God hears you, He sees you, and He loves you because you are His.

[Music]

Eryn: Today’s episode was engineered by Anne Stevens and produced by Jade Gustman and Mary Jo Clark.

Jade: We also want to thank Peggy and Jody for all of their help and support. Thanks, everyone.

Vivian: Our Daily Bread Ministries is a donor-supported non-profit ministry dedicated to making the life-changing wisdom and stories of the Bible come alive for all people around the world.

[Music]

Vivian: God Hears Her is a production of Our Daily Bread Ministries.